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Phill
23-01-2008, 07:27 PM
Seemingly there are plans to impose a ban on the use of older vehicles in the UK.

A petition has been organised canvasing the government against imposing such a ban.

You can add you name to the petition here
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Classic-Cars/

Alzax3
23-01-2008, 07:39 PM
I cannot believe the CRAP that the authorities pile on us at all levels, it's just got to be that there are too many little people in offices with too little to do trying to build empires......... Life used to be so much more fun when it wasn't over-regulated - OH bu**er my current risk assessment informs me that I had better stop soapbox ranting on account of the danger to my blood pressure. :cry:

Oh and I've signed the petition of course, for what good it will do.......

Alzax3
23-01-2008, 08:09 PM
I've just read the details: It's an EU proposal to ban the use of cars older than 10 years!!!!!!! Isn't it time we had a war or something (insert steam coming out of ears type emoticon) :@ :@ :@ :crash: :crash: :crash:(that sort of thing!)

letterman7
23-01-2008, 08:51 PM
That sort of thing was proposed here at one point, in California, I think. I'm sure one of the guys will chime in. Needless to say, it went nowhere, since many of the municipal vehicles are over 10 years old in every state. I wouldn't panic too much - there's so many historic and classic vehicles and clubs around that a law like that would have a hard time getting passed.

R

Alzax3
23-01-2008, 08:56 PM
If it was a British idea I'd agree with you entirely, Rick - it's just basically if the EU suggest it, we seem to go right along like lemmings.........

nigelf
23-01-2008, 10:27 PM
IMHO and that of the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs this is a wind-up. See http://www.fbhvc.co.uk/assetts/newslett ... letter.pdf (http://www.fbhvc.co.uk/assetts/newsletter-pdfs/03-07-newsletter.pdf) Page4

As Octane magazine said, "The Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs (FBHVC) has reported significant interest in a controversial online e-petition. The petition, which began in spring 2007, claims that the government and EU have plans to ban the use of vehicles older than 10 years.

The petition goes on to claim that Edinburgh City Council plans to ban cars of 15 years or older from its town centre.

While the FBHVC fully supports the right to keep vintage cars on the roads, it does not support the petition, claiming that it is 'ill-informed and unnecessary scaremongering that helps no-one'.

15,000 individuals have signed the petition so far but the FBHVC is still assuring concerned enthusiasts that there is little to worry about, and the petition lacks any hard evidence. 'It resonates with those who are determined to see the worst in what is going on round us, and spreads the myth that government and EU have "got it in for us"'."


I also searched the europa.eu.int website without finding anything.

Searching Google just lead me to other car clubs' forums (fora?) which linked back to the original petition. Earliest mention that I saw was April 2007 on a VW forum. Since then as far as I can see no news agency, nor Greenpeace has deemed it worthy of mention. Funny that.

If anyone does find a link to the original proposal, please post it here.

Phill
23-01-2008, 11:03 PM
I was sceptical at first - but nothing suprises me these days. I never thought a smoking ban would ever come into force in Britain (and I'm a non smoker - but I do support the idea that we all have a right to choose) - but it did, and is the principal reason why labour lost out to the SNP at the last elections in Scotland.

Edinburgh council would prefer to ban all cars from its city centre (never mind cars older than 10 years - which has also been mooted).

I wouldn't be too complacent if you reside in the UK - I have seen my own civil liberties gradualy eroded over the years.

bushboy
23-01-2008, 11:23 PM
I'm sure that this was suggested once in australia many years ago. Hoax or not I can't remember but one argument against it was that such a move would put a hundreds of people in the car recycling (used parts) out of business and onto social security.

If they ban cars older than 10 years old then thats it, i've had enough of all the restraints of the UK & I'll nick off back to Australia and live the life of Mad Max

bushboy

bobbybrown
23-01-2008, 11:33 PM
And I'll join you :tongue:

Ben
23-01-2008, 11:59 PM
Hi all

No problem for Nova owners A new law just do as we do and get on :cheers:

Ben

Spacenut
24-01-2008, 08:38 AM
In the immortal words of Michael Winner... "Calm down dear, it's only a..."

...nother discussion document that won't get anywhere. The classic car lobby in this country is far too powerful, and the rest of Europe seems to be not far behind.

When the EU tried to standardise vehicle legislation across Europe, there was a discussion paper on what to do about classic cars. There was all the usual tosh about scrapping anything over 10 years old so that we would all go out and buy nice shiny new cars instead - 'cos we would all do that, wouldn't we?

They also proposed restrictions on the use of classic cars in line with the most stringent rules then in force, which was in the Netherlands I think - no classic cars were to be allowed on the motorways, and were not allowed out at night either. Combined with the German TUV (the Uber-MoT), the EU legislators thought they would have all old cars consigned to the scrapyard before the year was out. Perfect.

The response in the UK was to introduce the rolling 25-year tax exemption. The first year, 80,000 classic cars went tax-free. The second year, 180,000 cars went tax-free. Admittedly the rolling tax exemption has now stopped (the Treasury realised that a significant portion of the motoring public were driving around tax-free), but even so, support for the classic car movement in this country means that such legislation would never be allowed to come into force. Too many industries would collapse - think about it - all those classic car restoration businesses, parts suppliers, customisers, everything - all out of business. The UK economy couldn't stand it. It's not so bad in Europe, but there is (as we know) strong support for classics in Germany and France, and many cars in southern Europe are old because their owners can't afford anything newer!

When the TUV applied exhaust emission requirements to ALL cars in Germany, irrespective of age, with no relaxation or exemption for classics, what happened? Did all the old Opels and Beetles go to the scrapyard? Nope - they adapted single-point, closed loop EFI to the humble Beetle (based on Brazilian designs) so that it can run a catalytic converter.

What these dodos fail to realise is that WE are not the problem - its the countless journeys being made by MODERN cars with their miniscule emissions that are the main pollutants. They may have emissions that are only 20% of what they were, but the sheer numbers! Even one badly maintained classic can't equal that.

Hmm - I'm ranting almost as much as Alex aren't I?

I think Ben's right - we just keep doing what we do. In the best traditions of "Smokey" Yanick, the rules are there to be broken... or at least bent a bit :D

Lauren

Phill
24-01-2008, 09:12 AM
As I see it - many of these proposals are testing the water. If we all ignore them and think it will never happen, then perhaps they will think there is no opposition and push these things through anyway.

Millions of people protested against the Iraq war - but that didn't stop our smug politicians (who believe they know best) from taking a course of action that was (in their opinion) for the greater good.

Banning old cars may be an unpopular choice for many - but equaly many in the "green" movement would applaud such an action.

My reaction to all this is - if in doubt - sign the petition anyway. It can't do you any harm - but may help to prevent another draconion law from being passed in this country that would destroy our ability to enjoy using older cars

Alzax3
24-01-2008, 09:40 AM
I'm with Phill on this, though of course, they banned fox hunting with dogs, and yet (here at least, don't know about anywhere else) the hunt goes out every week and chases foxes, unmolested by the police - I wonder if you'd be as free to flagrantly ignore a 10 year old car ban? No, probably not........

CyCo
24-01-2008, 10:03 AM
I'm sure that this was suggested once in australia many years ago. Hoax or not I can't remember but one argument against it was that such a move would put a hundreds of people in the car recycling (used parts) out of business and onto social security.

If they ban cars older than 10 years old then thats it, i've had enough of all the restraints of the UK & I'll nick off back to Australia and live the life of Mad Max

bushboy

I remember something along these lines too. If I remember, it was shouted down for the same reasons, and had some backing by some of the pollys. Including more than a few that have classic vehicles themselves, and those that had welfare portfolios.

Big Birds Car
24-01-2008, 11:51 AM
Are you sure it isn't a ploy to get more information about us as individuals for the governments data systems?
If there are masses of petitions to be signed about loads of different issues and everyone adds their names to them this means that the government has more info on us PLUS more info on us to loose or sell to others. (watch out for more spamming?)

OR am I just paranoid :shock:

Big Birds Car
24-01-2008, 11:52 AM
oh signed it anyway :cry:

Spacenut
24-01-2008, 12:04 PM
I agree we should not be complacent - but there will be extremely strong resistance should such a law ever reach the debating stage. Think of the numbers that will be affected.

8000+ MG owners
1000's of American car enthusiasts in this country alone, never mind the number of C3 Corvettes and F-bodies running around in Europe
At least a dozen Nova owners!
4000 Alfisti (I know, I'm in the AROC and many have old Alfas as well as new ones for running around in)
So many other classic car clubs, all with their own spares support infrastructure (Hell, what about MG Heritage - complete new MGB bodyshells, VW Heritage, E-type/Mk2 Jaguar heritage parts, Old Skool Ford... the list is endless)

The Green movement may feel that they outnumber classic car owners, and I'm sure they do, but they forget that we will have a large sympathy vote amongst ALL motorists, because they will be wondering if its them that will be next...

I mean, that's the plan, isn't it? Get rid of all cars, not just classics.

I never wanted to drive my car in Edinburgh anyway. It's their loss :D

Lauren

Phill
24-01-2008, 12:44 PM
I never wanted to drive my car in Edinburgh anyway. It's their loss :D

Lauren

Absolutely :clapping:

jimcub
24-01-2008, 01:37 PM
There are too many old cars about for them to get away with it, what would the carbon footprint be for destroying all cars over 10 years be.

Ben
24-01-2008, 04:05 PM
Hi all

Uk law works like this if they put it in place in 2010 cars put on the road they then will have to be scraped in 2020.
They can not scrap every car over 10 years old as they have grandfather rights.

The new mental capacity act 2005 has new criminal offences. Put fully in place October 2007

As my wife's grandad lives with us and finding out he has been robed of over 300'000 the CPS say it is not a crime as the offence happened in 2005.

Well lets face it our cars have the smallest carbon foot print as most the time off the road being worked on or not :rofl:


Ben

badpandared
24-01-2008, 07:54 PM
This will never happen, its more efficient to keep your old car than it is to produce a new car. FACT

Anyway they have been wanting to put front number plates on motorbikes for years,,,, HA can you imagine,,that would kill biking.

Big Birds Car
24-01-2008, 10:28 PM
Motor bikes used to have front number plates that could be seen from both sides of the bike. It sat ontop of the mudguard, however they were removed because if you hit someone you could slice them open. Just thought I would educate the babies (sorry the youngsters) of the site.

Ben
24-01-2008, 11:34 PM
Hi all

Who rembers wen the greenies got all cars to have a cat fitted form K and L plate. We all saw massive los of bhp filing the car with petrol more often. Now that did nothing for the enviroment in the UK as it is a very small country compared to oz or us.

But I know for a fact that a Triumph Herald with rebuilt un leaded engine running carbs can pas todays smoke test. He did it just for the hell of it not that they could fail his MOT it was tax exempted. :clapping:

If it ever gets pasted you will see MP'S hung up on the side of the road dangling off street lamps not trees, :twisted:


Ben

Spacenut
25-01-2008, 08:29 AM
I agree absolutely - it just won't happen.

But if it does, here's a few ideas I've been working on...

1 - Dust off that old "Q" plate - and then try and get DVLA to **prove** that the car is more than 10 years old. They spend all their time trying to prevent us from keeping historic tax status on our cars, they can't have it both ways. You'd lose your historic tax exemption, but at least you'd be on the road.

2 - SVA and have the car registered as new. A few tasteless mods here and there and the Nova would probably pass. Need to use more new parts though - maybe a bespoke chassis :D

3 - This whole suggestion revolves around engine emissions - as Jim says, it would be worse for the environment to scrap old cars that are not designed to be re-cycled. So my first action if faced with this regulation is fit a newer, emission-compliant engine, or better yet, as Ben says prove that your existing engine meets all current requirements. My 35-year old Plymouth easily met current CO emission requirements even though it was only supposed to pass the "visible smoke" test. My Alfa engine was a direct replacement for the 1978 original, but was designed for post-1982 emission regulations, and later versions still had EFI and closed-loop catalytic converters. Scrapping a perfectly sound OLD car with a NEW emissions-friendly engine would be ludicrous!

As an aside, yesterday on my way home I decided to count up how many cars I saw that would have to the scrapped (with no suggestion of compensation). It was at least 10-20% of all the cars I saw, and that was just in the station car-park :D

It would be career suicide for any politician to suggest it.

Lauren

Alzax3
25-01-2008, 08:56 AM
I don't think it would really happen either - it would be as popular as banning the use of cash, dog ownership or car boot sales! :rofl:

They're sneaky bu**ers though! When I lived in Greece in the early nineties (you'd be amazed at some of the bizarre Eastern Block cars that were common run-abouts then!) They brought in a scheme where you got a huge government bribe - sorry incentive! :bleh: if you exchanged your over-10-year-old car for a new 'green' model (Someone told me it could amount to a 70% discount, but they could have been exaggerating!)
Giving big discounts to change up would probably encourage a lot of people with ordinary cars in this country too - soon leaving just the poorest people who with even a 70% discount still couldn't afford to change. And we all know that the financially challenged in this country have absolutely no voice............

jimcub
25-01-2008, 03:28 PM
And those who could not afford the 70% would buy an old car and upgrade for less than they could afford normally, but then there would be a bit of small print stopping it when they wake up.

badpandared
25-01-2008, 10:33 PM
Id get a new beetle from mexico and use that chassis on my nova

MicksRedNova
25-01-2008, 11:18 PM
Its a cunning trick by the DVLA to free up a few million old registration numbers that they could sell to make a small fortune. :twisted:

Mick