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jimcub
06-03-2008, 11:41 PM
I started the nova today with a new starter and it went 1/8 turn and stuck, tried it 1/2 doz times and same thing and volts dropped. Turned engine over with a spanner and tried it again, it spun like a race horse and started. it fired on 3 as the plug in number 1 did not spark. Bought new plug put it in fired straight off, it did sound lumpy a bit at first so took it out for a run and it accelerated ok and drove fine apart from a couple of carb blow backs. Would this be down to timing as it was done by ear ( timing light useless ), also the carb's need balancing.

Today I reset the valves
put pre heater pipes on they don't fit a monza very well but do now, redid the near side exhaust joint to stop it blowing
put new 100 amp battery on
put new flexi tube on fan outlets
put breather connection on off side air filter, need to connect to oil filler body
refitted air filters, but had to bring linkage plates away from the carb body
put new starter motor on

Things to do replace oil and strainer
put new gear lever on
put handbrake boot on
find oil temp sender ( it's in the garage somewhere ) and install ( where no room at normal oil point )

Best move so far was to put clips on the rear, it makes life so much easier to work on the engine. Saved many knuckles and some choice words, saved many hours of work as well.

Next is a good run out as it goes to Oulton park race track, where i have a choice of cars to do a few laps in
Clio Renaultsport 197’s and Formula Brands Single Seaters ( race round the circuit )
or
rear-wheel-drive Escort Cosworth ( rallying )
or
Land Rover Defender ( mud blast )

letterman7
07-03-2008, 12:51 AM
Jim, when you changed the starter, did you check to make sure the support bushing on the tranny side was in good shape, or the right size? Very, very often, when these bushes start to wear, they'll stick the starter and make it seem like the starter itself is failing. I personally went through 3 bushes and two starters until I figured out that what I was doing was mis-matching the starters and bushes.
The backfiring through the carbs are a) too far advanced or b) un-tuned carbs or c) both. Timing these engines is one of the easiest things to do with a light. Put the sender on the plug 1 wire, start the engine, and with the motor idling at 850-900 rpm, your TDC mark should be about 10 degrees BTDC. If you've got a light with the adjustable timing wheel, set it to 10 degrees, and your mark should be right at the top aligned with the engine case split. Rotate your distributor as necessary to adjust!

R

Alzax3
07-03-2008, 08:08 AM
Rick's spot on as usual, but if you're not using one of the xenon tubed (very white) lights I can understand you'd be having problems. You may find though that even when spot on by the light, you may need to tweak it a fraction either way to get it 'perfect' - that's the timing by ear bit!

jimcub
07-03-2008, 02:40 PM
There may be something in your bush comments Alex, as this morning when starting it went 1/8th turn each time. After 6 attempts it turned freely and started ok, it may be able to do the 1/8th turns as it has a big battery on it now, before the small battery would not have enough power to do the 1/8th turn.
I have a new bush which came with the starter I can change, does the whittled stick method work to get the old one out or do I have to buy the genuine article.

letterman7
07-03-2008, 03:36 PM
You should be able to work it out with a long screwdriver, Jim. Chances are it's worn and slightly loose anyway. I was able to work my way under the car enough to look with a flashlight to see what I was doing. Uncomfortable, but it got the job done. Putting the new bushing in was nothing more than fitting it to the end of my little finger, getting it set into the housing, and tapping it home with the handle end of a screwdriver.

R

jimcub
07-03-2008, 04:43 PM
It was easier with the engine out last week, but if I tap a screwdriver in it should wedge in and come out. well wish me good fishing under the cramped back end.

letterman7
07-03-2008, 06:41 PM
Check too that your engine is bolting flush to the tranny case. Sometimes the case end can get ever so slightly warped, and the engine bolts don't snug evenly. If the flywheel ring gear is out of perpendicular line to the starter gear, you'll have some issues as well.

jimcub
07-03-2008, 08:01 PM
Ill try the bush first and if that doesn't work sounds like an engine out job, but that will be a while away yet as I am running out of time.

Alzax3
07-03-2008, 09:28 PM
I had the same symptoms on the way to Stones last year - completely dead starter at a garage, bump started, didn't work when I got there, then it did for no reason - fitted Bushboy's spare that he'd brought with him - which was an unusual one with a self supporting drive cog (can't explain better owing to wine indulgence :clapping: :cheers:- but it didn't use the bush system) no problem since.

letterman7
07-03-2008, 10:42 PM
Them there starters are the autostick starters, Alex! Great replacements for all the cars. I've also used the high-dollar miniature gear-drive starters as well - they sound very cool when they kick into gear!

R

jimcub
08-03-2008, 09:03 AM
wisdom is in the knowing, there is a lot of wisdom on this site. I may have gone for one of those if I'd have know and the price was not hugely different, if it fitted of course but why did they not convert to auto box starters and get away from the bushed variety?

letterman7
08-03-2008, 02:33 PM
Probably because the engineers were pig-headed and didn't want to suggest that it would be a good idea :laugh: Look around at the swaps, Jim. Usually someone has one, and at a reasonable price. It certainly wouldn't hurt to keep a spare around...I know I did!

jimcub
11-03-2008, 11:34 AM
Went to start it today and same problem, but this time the starter was warm to the touch so I gave up. Will try and turn engine by hand and see what difference it makes, I have a spare starter if anyone wants to swop for an Auto type and I will be at Stones

jimcub
11-03-2008, 12:15 PM
Now how bizzare is this I took the ignition key out and got out of the nova, it started to turn over all on it's own with no ignition switched on and no starter button pressed. I have a quick release on the battery terminal, every time I make contact it turns over very freely.

Whats happening, is this the root of my problems?? :annoyed: :crash:

letterman7
11-03-2008, 01:52 PM
:cursing: You've got a hot line or running ground somewhere Jim. Double check all your wiring! If you're key switched and a starter button...start there. It should be in a simple loop - power to keyswitch...other side of switch to button...other side of button to starter solenoid. The starter itself should have it's own fat power lead right to the battery.

Big Birds Car
11-03-2008, 04:41 PM
If I were you Jim I would start from the very basic's and remove everything electrical from your power sources, Switch and Battery.
Put one Live to from the battery to the starter solenoid and another to the switch, then as Rick says ensure that you have power from the switch when in the on position going to the starter button and see what happens when you do that and press the button.
If all seems fine then add more power cables ie. from the switch to the coil and see what happens, if it starts and runs or not.
If this stage works ok then maybe add the hydraulic power supply.
Again if all goes well then add the light circuit etc. etc. etc.
Keep everything as simple as possible until you are sure that everything works as it should before adding remotes and all the usual auxilliary rubbish we have to add because we can.
Failing this method remove all the wiring and start from new with everything.
Might not be what you want to hear but I have noticed that an awfull lot of your issues have been electrical and it needs sorting once and for all and not just by luck and fingers crossed.
Good Luck.

MicksRedNova
11-03-2008, 08:33 PM
Now how bizzare is this I took the ignition key out and got out of the nova, it started to turn over all on it's own with no ignition switched on and no starter button pressed. I have a quick release on the battery terminal, every time I make contact it turns over very freely.

Whats happening, is this the root of my problems?? :annoyed: :crash:

Jim, you could have a dodgy solenoid. It's just an electro-magnetic switch that is held OFF by a spring. It could be the spring is broken or the solenoid is partially jammed (either open or closed depending on how it feels), which could also be the cause of your intermittent starting. First thing to check is whether you've got a 12 volt feed to the solenoid 'start' connector with the ignition off - obviously you shouldn't unless you have a crossed wire somewhere. BEWARE WHEN PRODDING ABOUT NEAR THE SOLENOID AND STARTER, THERE IS A DIRECT CONNECTION TO ONE OF THE TERMINALS FROM THE BATTERY WHICH WILL CAUSE SPARKS IF ACCIDENTALLY SHORTED TO EARTH. If, as I suspect, this connection shows no voltage, but the starter turns as soon as you connect the battery, then it's definately a dodgy solenoid.

Mick

jimcub
11-03-2008, 10:07 PM
The starter issue has appeared on 3 separate starters it goes through a relay to the button so I don't have a full load like it did when I first got it, maybe now I have a larger battery it manifests in a different way.
I think the way to go is a complete rewire from scratch, as some of the wiring is no to my liking anyway. But time is not on my side at the moment as I go away in a few weeks on hols for a month, then it will be stones weekend after I get back and I have a load of things to fit in. But later this summer it will have to be done, but for now I will look hard and long.

Phill
12-03-2008, 09:04 AM
On reading this thread I wondered if the cause of your problems were a poor earth somewhere.

I found this procedure described on another forum. I think if you follow it through it may help to establish what is wrong Jim

Now I'm no auto electrician, but I've learned all this from all the various cars I've had, and all the starting trouble I've had to put up with over the years. I've since resolved all of them ,and my cars now start up every time without fail.

If you haven't already got a multimeter, go get one.

Starting circuit is very very simple. The starter motor earths through it's body to the gearbox, which is then earthed back to the battery or the chassis leg via the gearbox bracket, or one of the gearbox to engine bolts.
For power, there is a +ve (positive) lead going to the solenoid on the starter. The solenoid is earthed to the starter body via braided strap.

In order for the starter to fire, it requires a 12v +ve feed to be sent down the red/black trigger cable, also on the solenoid. This comes from the ignition switch (which simply connects +ve to this red/black wire when you turn the ign. key to crank). When the solednoid "sees" 12v, it fires and sends the end of the starter into mesh with the flywheel, and also completes the circuit to supply the starter motor with 12v too. In order for the starter to work, the solenoid must fire (you'll hear it click), the gear must mesh with the flywheel, and the starter must turn the engine over.

So, that's the system. Now onto problem solving.

System checks when the starter fails to turn.

1. Is your battery flat?
Get the multimeter out, set it to the DC voltage range of 20. Measure the voltage over the battery terminals. It needs to be about 12.4v to turn the starter properly.

2. Check for +ve
Also check the voltage between the -ve terminal of the battery and the +ve connection of the solenoid.

If the battery is flat, get the jump leads out or try to bump the car off. If it's OK, but you don't have as good voltage at the starter than you do at the battery, check the cable and connections.

3. Check earths
Set the multimeter to continuity mode and make sure there is a good earth connection from the bare alloy part of the starter body back to the -ve terminal of the battery. On older cars, where the earth strap is usually on the gearbox mount, the circuit can be broken when the bracket or the gearbox corrodes, thus causing a bad earth. Even if you don't find a bad earth, it's better to run an extra earth strap to the starter mounting bolt or gearbox mounting bolt, then the earth doesn't have to go back through the whole gearbox and it's bracket.

So, that's the starter wiring checked. if you have a good battery and good earth and +ve connections, now check the solenoid.

4. Check the earth strap.

You've already check the +ve side of things on step 2. There is a short peice of braided strap which earths the -ve terminal of the solenoid to the starter body. This strap corrodes if not greased, thus breaking the circuit. Although it may not be visibly snapped, it may have deteriorated engouh to a state where it cannot transmit the required current. Give it a quick tug with a screwdriver to see how strong it is. Don't worry about breaking it. if it snaps, that's a good sign, as it means it's corroded!

5. Check ignition supply.

You will need someone to help you here. Remove the red/black trigger wire from the solenoid. Stick the red lead of your multimeter in the end of it and earth the black lead on the -ve terminal of the battery. Get you assistant to sit in the car and turn the ignition key to crank. You should see at least 12v. If you don't get 12v on this lead, suspect the imobiliser (if fitted) or the ignition switch itself. I've found with some automatics that there can be a current drop of up to 1.5v due to there being an additional circuit on the gear selector which this feed has to travel through. To bypass the ignition altogether you can simply use a peice of thick cable to connect the trigger terminal (where the red/balck wire was connected to the solenoid) directly to the +ve terminal of the battery. If the solenoid and starter is in working order it should operate as though you'd cranked the key. Although it won't start if the ignition isn't on.

By running through the above check list you should be able to determine any fault within the starting system.

As a rule of thumb, if you hear clicking but nothing else, you solenoid is working but the motor isn't. If you hear a whirr but not the engine turning, the motor works, but the solenoid isn't engaging it.

If the starter turns the engine over but it doesn't start, you're stupid and you've wasted your time reading this thread as it'as about starter motors and yours is working, there's something else wrong.

If the starter IS faulty. Buy a brand new genuine Bosch one. Most motor factors stock factory refurbished ones, which are as good as new. Expensive, but worth it for peace of mind. Again, bosch are recommended for batteries too.

jimcub
12-03-2008, 05:31 PM
left battery charger on it all night and it started first spin, went for a run volt meter shows it's charging ok. Stopped and started it few times during run and it was Ok, as the new battery was not charged when put on just what it had in the shop, do you think it was struggling a bit due to minimal charge. i know electrics go a bit haywire when there is not enough juice, I have turned the power off for a couple of days ( saturday ) and will try again. then I will leave battery connected and try again after a few days to see if there has been a drop ( checking the voltage each time ).
Thanks Phill that will be of use not only to me but others. :D

jimcub
15-03-2008, 04:01 PM
Started Ok this morning but I did leave the battery disconnected, went for a run and no probs. When I did a 2 mile straight at 55mph on slowing down it backfired a few times but only on low revs, but did not do it again after that once.
There was a smell of petrol and this looked like it was coming from the overflow vent, which is cable tied above the height of the tank. on the previous tank this was blocked off, the feed pipe does need a new one.
Where the inlet to the tank is there is very little room, so it would have to be thin wall.

jimcub
17-03-2008, 05:10 PM
Ok not started today so I checked the volts 12.93v which should be enough to turn it over, tried to turn with socket on the crank and boy was that tight. Got it turned and went to starter and it turned over freely after that, and started ok after wards when I went to it. So now I will keep a 30mm socket in the tool box incase it happens again, but why should it and it is when the engine is a TDC only I can back it off freely but got tight when I got to tdc.
Also there seemed to be water in the oil I changed it and it was a grey colour, only water to get anywhere near the engine was when I put the new airfilters on there was a breather hole in one right where the engine lid curve bottoms ( now plugged ).
So changed oil and filter.

letterman7
17-03-2008, 06:10 PM
Uh oh....are you sure it's water, Jim? It wouldn't be grey, it would look like yellow whipped cream (sometimes) or the water would be very obvious. Did you smell it by chance? Any gasoline odor to it? If it's gas smell...check everything from the pump to the carbs for leaks and don't run the motor. Since you had it around the block last week, and you didn't catch the oil contamination, my gut feeling that the grey look you're oil has is from destroyed bearings....I really hope I'm wrong, but not being able to turn it over easily sort of points in that direction. Is this a new or used motor, Jim? I can't remember what you had said initially.
Bottom line - I wouldn't run the engine until you find out why it's sticking. Take out the plugs and try turning it by hand. There should be very little resistance - certainly no tight spots. If there are, you'll have to dig deeper to see what's going on.

R

Alzax3
17-03-2008, 07:28 PM
I'm with Rick on that one (and you should follow his suggested diagnosis method)- grey sounds nastily like metal contamination, water produces what we call 'mayonnaise'. My original Nova used to collect a thin coat of it under the oil filler cap, I guessed it was condensation at the time. Did you notice what happens with your oil pressure? Does it flick up to opperating pressure quickly, or does it creep up, going up more quickly if you rev the engine?

jimcub
17-03-2008, 08:15 PM
Oil pressure goes up to 40psi as soon as engine starts from cold, drops to 20psi on tickover. Same as it did always, still rises when reved as it should.
Engine has sat for a few months before I bought it, there is a splattering of water from the exhaust when it starts up as well.

Alzax3
17-03-2008, 08:22 PM
Yes you'd expect that, especially with the choke operating (the water I mean). Oil pressure doesn't sound like main bearings worn but there's something weird going on. What had collected on the strainer filter magnet when you did the oil change? Was there much 'iron filling hair'? (this wouldn't be bearing material, but if the bearings were not good, could be crankshaft scrapings)

jimcub
17-03-2008, 08:35 PM
Old plug was not magnetic neither is the new one, I will check the strainer for what it collected when I clean it a bit.

Ok here is a pic of the strainer
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x91/euronova/UKK469H/PICT1208.jpg

the shinney bit below the pipe insert was a bit of paint or seal from when it was built. I checked with a magnet and it gathered no bits.

17-03-2008, 10:24 PM
Pardon the language but the seems to be all sorts of crap in there, I wouldn't be surprised if bearing oilways are blocked (crank or cam or both). My only suggestion would be to have the whole engine stripped down and professionally cleaned, then see if it's any use after that. It's amazing the number of people build engines and paint them to look pretty but don't realise it should be treated like a surgical procedure and any contamination can totally destroy it.

jimcub
17-03-2008, 10:30 PM
Was not built by me, was supposedly done by an engineer for his son, no guarantee buying second hand is there?
I would expect some bits from a rebuilt engine, due to the jointing that spreads out if using the paste type.
You should see some of the stuff that comes out of the paper filter when you take em apart on modern cars.

bushboy
17-03-2008, 11:37 PM
Jim,
I'm no air cooled four stroke expert, and part of the justification for me going water cooled was the state of the oil when I first brought my reek many moons ago. Pull out the dip stick & it looked like a typical water cooled blown head gasket. Creamy white oil. I just ripped the engine out & sold it. If the engine had been sitting for quite some time & poorly stored then condensation may have formed inside the engine or rain water has found an entry point. Short of dropping the sump, (I quess these engines have one!!!!) & inspecting bearings, I would fill it with some cheap oil (no firiction modifiers helps run the engine in faster), new filter & run it again. Kep a close eye on oil pressure & temp (if available ) & dip the oil regularly to assess its condition.

Just had another thought....it's not over filled with oil & beating it full of air is it??? would give a simmilar apperance to being contaminated with water!!

bushboy

jimcub
18-03-2008, 12:19 AM
I will measure what oil came out
I have filled to top mark with new oil, before stones I will renew the oil and see what colour it is, it will be parked up for a month while I am holiday so it will only be run next week.
If no change and the engine is suspect then I'll renew it, don't ask me to strip it down the garage is full of furniture again and it's wet outside.

BB what is your fav aussie beer.

Ben
18-03-2008, 12:57 AM
Hiya jumcub

I think the motor was stored out side for a wile. I remember wen you got your motor it looked sweet just rebuilt. Dump the oil and put some red disel threw it you can't buy flushing oil now.



Ben

letterman7
18-03-2008, 01:24 AM
Ohh...hmmmm....lots of crud in that strainer. Running 1/2 diesel and 1/2 30 weight through the motor by hand might flush the galleries enough to get a feel for what's going on. Strap a socket big enough to go over the engine pulley, pull the plugs and plug the output from the fuel pump (or disconnect the lines) and turn the engine over with drill power. If you can get it to "run" decently without straining the drill, run the motor for a couple - 3,4 minutes. Then drain everything, change the filter, and re-fill with straight 30 weight. Then start the motor - don't rev it, just let it idle. If you hear any knocking at all, shut it down. Valve tap is ok, deeper clunk-clunk is not good. If everything checks, run the motor for 10-15 minutes, then drain the oil again and refill. The next time it starts you should be good to go. But, the grey color really bothers me....there's something internal going on, especially of the previous owner was using sealant everywhere. Methinks the internal tolerances were being pushed by sealant where it wasn't supposed to be.

bushboy
18-03-2008, 10:57 PM
........

BB what is your fav aussie beer.

Jim I drink XXXX as I can't spell beer :cheers:

Thanks

bushboy

jimcub
18-03-2008, 11:13 PM
that would look good at customs, er it's no name beer. Right yea come with me sunshine and sit in this windowless room for a day, while I ask you some questions. :please:
Spend time at every airport being searched as the metal body bits set of every alarm, and i have 4 immigration controls to get through on the way to Sydney and the same coming back. :giveup:

CyCo
19-03-2008, 01:00 AM
XXXX (http://www.xxxx.com.au/)

And one thing with the oil problem. When you drain the oil, don't bother measuring it. I take it you don't know how much oil the engine holds then? Look it up, or someone here can tell you.

When I got my 'reek, I didn't know how much oil the scooby donk could hold, so just used the same amount that came out of the sump. Turns out it was over by something like 1 litre. And had been when I got it. So it did the rear end seal.

bobbybrown
19-03-2008, 01:09 AM
Any chance there could be condensation in the engine Jim?
If not, I'd check the crank and cam oil ways as already suggested, aswell as the full set of oil seals.

You definately need to clean it out and let her idle for a while though, get the oil pumping around then drain it all out, may take a couple of flushes doing it like that but it should clean it out enough.
*I wouldn't worry too much about the filter, just keep emptying it when you flush it out, and pop it back on there for the next flush, but change it when you refil the oil for the last time, obviously. (*personal opinion)

Looks spot on for a head gasket failure to me, only thing is its an air cooled engine :laugh:

jimcub
19-03-2008, 10:11 AM
The engine had all the open holes sealed with cloth and tape when I got it, and looked as though it had not been outside.
There was far too much oil in as I put 2.6lt in and got 5 lt out, yes I know how much it takes I read it up and fitted a new dip stick to replace the old one which had no marks on it.
Will flush out the oil it has in now, I replaced the filter as I had a new one.

bushboy
19-03-2008, 06:05 PM
Jim,
Forgot your off to oz. If you are serious and are in sydney I love a can of Toothy's OLD.

Just one can would be very nice.

bushboy

jimcub
19-03-2008, 06:13 PM
I will pass through Sydney in the way to Koolangatta, just south of Brisbane, I get there after Hong Kong and will stay at Island mans Singapore on the way back.

jimcub
30-04-2008, 08:15 PM
Started the engine after 4 weeks and the problem arose again, it was extremely stiff to crank round with a socket on the crank nut. after 3 turns of the engine it turned freely, again I got water out of the exhaust.
Went for a run and it ran well, the rocker cover on 3 4 cylinders was hot compared to the other side which was that cool I could rest my hand on it comfortably.
Went to start it this morning and it turned and locked up again, so I turned it on the crank nut once and it started freely. What is going on.
I have drained the oil and taken the cover off so I can check the valves, will take plugs out and watch the valves to see if there is a problem there. Will try to look down the plug hole but i wish I had a endoscope to look inside the cylinders.

Spacenut
01-05-2008, 01:03 PM
Hi Jim - I'm not too boned-up on air-cooled engines so I haven't contributed to this thread yet, but one thing I do know is that water should not be coming from the exhaust! Unless the water is expelled really quickly (which is due to condensation forming in the exhaust manifolds/system as it cools after a run) there is no other source of water that could be responsible.

Except...

...And its a long shot I know, but...

...How about a bad batch of fuel? I have heard of water getting into fuel before, and if that got into the cylinders it would be incompressible and would make it very hard to turn the engine over... at least to start with. Such a poor formulation may also explain why the engine won't run on all cylinders (evidenced by the cool cylinder bank).

Could the fuel have water in it? Petrol is heavier, so will stay at the bottom of the tank close to the pick-up, but if there is any water on top it will get drawn in eventually...

Anyway, its just a thought. I'll shut up now :D

Lauren

letterman7
01-05-2008, 01:34 PM
It almost sounds to me that the 3-4 pistons are sticking, Jim, and/or the valves. They're holding the compression until the next stroke pops the valves open. What worries me is the 1-2 side being cool. Try taking the plugs out and running a dry compression test; that is, don't put any oil into the cylinder when you run the tests. Post your results here. My feeling is that the 1-2 bank got overheated at one point and the cylinder's aren't holding their air....

R

jimcub
01-05-2008, 03:13 PM
Right the cool cylinders are caused by 1 and 2 not firing, I get a spark but when the engine runs the exhaust is cold to cool ( I can leave my hand on it ). There is fuel getting in I had a look at that, I held each plug and they sparked but I put new Bosch in anyway also tried different leads but still no go. ?????

Big Birds Car
01-05-2008, 04:11 PM
Jim, You need to see what is causing the engine to hydraulic, on water cooled engines it is nearly always the head gasket leaking. Water won't compress so it effectively stops the piston from rising to the top, if too much water is present and you manage to start the engine you can often bend a conrod. Now I know that your's is aircooled but rather than water in the fuel as could be the case (re Lauren's suggestion), have you looked to see if water is getting into the carb from the engine lid. Do you have twin carbs? if so next time you leave the engine for a while before starting see if there is any evidence of water in, around, on top etc of the carb. Take the filter off and have a look in the carb choke as well.

Now still don't start the engine, but remove all the spark plugs and then turn the engine over and see if any water gets pushed out of the plug holes (easier if you are watching and someone else is turning the key).

If after all this there is still no evidence of water ingress then I would have to say remove the engine and do a rebuild, step by step as it's beyond most reason.

jimcub
01-05-2008, 05:11 PM
I have fitted gutters to stop rain water from getting onto the top of the twin carbs, before it had no hose but this is now fitted to the breather pipe. Not happen today.
I have got some heat into cylinders 1 and 2 but not as hot as 3 and 4 but when i pull the caps off there is no noticeable drop in revs at tick over, there is a spark from the lead to earth.
Took the dizzy off and repositioned when No1 is on top at TDC, put all leads back as per manual.

letterman7
01-05-2008, 06:10 PM
Then you've got either burned valves on that bank, Jim, or the compression is shot. It is remotely possible that the fuel mixture itself isn't combusting, even though you've got a spark. Plugs are funny that way - the spark will look 'right' when you take then out, but fail to fire off the cylinder. The spark you should be seeing should be nice, white and fat across the electrodes. A little flicker like you'd see with a static shock to your finger isn't good enough. But that still doesn't explain why the engine is seizing initially.

Alzax3
01-05-2008, 07:10 PM
Would be a place where the famous 'glass sparkplug' might show up the problem (I've had plugs that were afraid of the dark but worked fine outside the cylinder, but I think you said you'd replaced the plugs already?) - though they were always a pig to see round the VW tinwork.....I can lend you one if it might help, but the more that gets said, the more it sounds like the engine needs a tear-down and rebuild...

jimcub
01-05-2008, 08:13 PM
Good point Alex and I have one a freeby from a friend, ok tried it in 3 cylinders.
#4 good yellow light and turned blue when reved, hot exhaust
#1 spark there but that's all no heat on exhaust
#2 poor quality yellow light bit of heat from the exhaust

given up now it's 8.00pm and hospital in the morning, so no work till after lunch. then I have from then till 11.30 on saturday morning to get it done, after that it's stones in my old car as new one is not ready yet.

bushboy
01-05-2008, 10:05 PM
Jim,
I had a similar hot/cold scenario with the V6. One bank ran hot the other was cool. It idled very smoothly and appeared to rev freely when the throttle was opened. I did the start it up & pull the plug leads off one at a time. The cold bank made no difference to the idle. The hot bank nearly stalled the engine. I feared burnt,bent,cracked valves/pistons. Pulled all the plugs & did a thumb in the plug hole compression test. To my delight all 6 had decent compression. I refitted the plugs and leads, fired it up again and it was running on all six, both side hot.

All that doesn't help you much as to this day I still don't know what was wrong. just remember that you need 3 things for the engine to start
1. Fuel
2. Spark
3. Compression.

Seams like you are missing No3 on one bank. Do a compression test as rick said cause it looks like a strip down form here.

Best of luck.

Bushboy

jimcub
01-05-2008, 10:15 PM
i have had a suggestion it could be a leak on the inlet manifold, so I will pull that side off and refit. If nothing then I will be at stones in the old car, BB I have some old for you.

bushboy
01-05-2008, 10:22 PM
BB I have some old for you.

yum, yum, yum

bushboy

jimcub
01-05-2008, 10:26 PM
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Big Birds Car
02-05-2008, 09:05 AM
Jim, one other thing if it isn't an air leak, you need to make sure that both carbs are ballanced and are running correctly if one carb feeds one bank of cylinders, (I assume there is a balance tube somewhere, it won't compensate for major differences). Could the carbs be well out of adjustment so causing one side to run lean and hot and the other side rich and cool?
Running out of options I'm afraid if none of these work it's time to do a proper compression check and if necessary a complete strip down and rebuild. or buy a new engine like Nena.

jimcub
02-05-2008, 04:30 PM
Ok got all 4 cylinders firing, refitted the manifold top and bottom and had a look with the glass plug ( thanks Alex ) and it was nice and blue and yellow in the right places. Will bring it to stones with me a great little tool.
Went for a run at a steady 40 / 50 and ran it to 85mph at one time ( 4,000 revs ), so looking good.

jimcub
02-05-2008, 07:14 PM
washed the nova and guess what, water locked the engine had to slowly hand crank it passed TDC and it started fine but with a spray of water out of the exhaust and ran lumpy. Can't for the life of me see where it can get in, I put channels above where the carbs are to stop water running onto the top of them, the breather pipe is sealed on top of one airfilter. I think in quantity the amount of water is very small ( egg cup full ), the only open bits on an engine is the carbs, I can hear it hissing past somewhere when I crank the engine by hand.????
Will try again Saturday.

letterman7
02-05-2008, 07:21 PM
I'm really surprised you haven't bent a valve stem yet, Jim, if you're getting water in the motor. Is the oil breather fitting open enough to allow water to enter the case there? Is your distributor down tight against the block? Personally, I'd pull the engine and tear it down for a look-see. Any water intrusion means water in the oil, gas, and eventually some rust on the components inside.

R

Big Birds Car
02-05-2008, 11:00 PM
Jim, put a waterproof cover over the carbs and the engine under the engine cover then in the morning remove said cover and see if all is well. If yes then you are definately getting water in from somewhere and you can then start to investigate further, each time when you put the car away put the waterproof cover back in place.
If water is causing the issue then you need to stop it asap as it WILL bend rods or valves at some point (water doesn't compress therefore something will have to give).

jimcub
03-05-2008, 09:34 AM
No rain no water and started Ok, will follow BBC and cover the engine with a tarp, if thats successful then I'll make adjustments to the rear engine panel. Also will find out where it is getting in.