PDA

View Full Version : Replacement engines...a question or three.....



adrenaline
20-03-2008, 11:49 AM
Hi Guys

New here and new to owning a Nova....

I am in the process of deciding what to do engine wise.......wether to stay Volkswagen or go for something a little different...

I have a few questions though....

I would really like to go V6, as I assume the motor stands a better chance of fitting than a V8 and the sound of a V6 is still the nuts......I have a 2.3 Ford V6 in my Marlin Berlinetta and that sounds really........ :cool1:

Looking at a more modern V6, say the V6 from the Ford Mondeo ST24, you can get 170bhp as standard....... :clapping: :clapping:

How do you go about making this, or a similar engine fit.....??

Do you fit the VW flywheel so the starter motor can engage....??

Is it a simple matter of fabricating an adaptor plate....??

What about CATs.....would you have to run them....I assume you would have to so that the ECU can get correct inputs from the pre and post cat sensors....??

What about the gearbox...?? Will it stand the extra power, or will it grenade....or stay togeter if driven sympathetically.....?? What are the options...??

Am I correct in assuming that the engine would also need a support framework welding up as the gearbox mounts may be a little stressed otherwise....??

I am sure there are other questions I need to ask and I will add them if any come to mind.....

I know several of you have already done similar things so I would appreciate your input and guidance on this matter....

Regards

Carl

Big Birds Car
20-03-2008, 12:24 PM
Carl, I've put a pinto in the back on a hewland adaptor plate that enables me to keep the ford starter motor and flywheel. The clutch is a hybrid, I think, ford pressure plate with VW centre plate, there is also a need for a spigot on the clutch release so that the original VW release bearing is retained but the etended length required is achieved by use of the spigot.

Personally if you are not going the V8 route then I would steer clear of the old cast iron V6's and sourse a more modern version. The reason for this is two fold firstly the weight of the Essex or Cologne V6's is over the top and secondly the sourcing of parts will eventually start to be come more of an issue, whereas a newer version will still be able to get parts for in the future. (having said twofold I have also thought that the power and fuel economy of a more modern power plant would also be an advantage)

Bush Boy and Ben have used V6's Subaru/Rover I think and can give you more info on fuel mapping, lambda sensors etc.

You could go big VW if your budget is large enough.

Even with the Pinto I have had to extend the rear bodywork by about an inch or so to cover it so maybe a V6 would fit better or how about a rotary unit.
From what I understand the gearbox will stand up to most things if driven sympathetically or you can fit a Porker unit that will do more.

If using a V6 cast engine a cradle would be adviseable, I'm making one for the pinto as it is obviously heavier than the VW unit. BB has added a bit of extra metalwork as well, but it is not rocket science and fairly easy to achieve.
Just my ramblings but hope they are of use.
Good Luck.

Kym
20-03-2008, 01:13 PM
I ran ej2.2 in my Eureka and I thought the conversion was reasonably easy but needed heavy clutch (2000lb), strap kit on the box and the wiring took some time as I used Subaru for almost everything. Column, criuse control, instruments, A/C and heater controls, etc.
137hp awesome. If I did it again it would be Turbo WRX probably STI, hydraulic clutch, hooked through a porsche G50. Oh and power assisted discs all round. No good with the go if you don't have the woh
Kym

adrenaline
25-03-2008, 02:56 PM
Hi Bushboy, Ben

Your names came up in my post on the engines board regarding the useage of alternative engines in the Nova....

I am considering going Ford Duratec V6 and have a few questions that I was advised that you may be able to answer, or at least point me in the right direction...

I think Kennedy engineeering do the correct adaptor plate (awaiting confirmation from them) so fitting it is sorted, I think, but that's the easy bit.... :cheers:

What do I then do with regard to running cats.....??

Can I get rid of them or do I have to run them.......??

I suppose if I run the standard injection/ignition ecu I would have to as they are set up to use pre and post cat lamda sensors...??

If I junk the cats, what emmisions do I have to conform to.....would tat be the emmisions for the year of the car or the engine.......if its a 68 chassis would that be visual only (or something equally easy to achieve...??)

Anthing else you think I might need to know would be welcomed with open ears.....

Regards

Carl

bushboy
26-03-2008, 09:39 PM
Carl

Engine choice is as personal as your choice of colour. Every one will have their opinion of what you should have, what they wish they had & what they actually have.

If you want a quick straight forward build, leave it air cooled.

But definitely have a plan & stick to it. I speak from the experience of not having one & have had 4 different motors in the reek. The original VW, an Isuzu 2lt straight 4- too long, a Scooby flat 4 & now the V6. Since deciding on the V6 I am now as close as I have ever been to getting it on the road.

Things you may want to consider.
Weight,
Height,
Length,
Adapters,
ECU requirements
Cooling
Air intake.

The top 3 are fairly self explanatory (I guess)
Adapters- Kennedy does a multitude of adapters, as you have found out, and is definitely the easiest option. As long as they list your choice of engine you will be right.
ECU- This can get very tricky, very quickly. I have heard of people that have had to have a “magic” black box made that mimics a lot of the inputs that the ECU is looking for- road speed, gear selection, relative wheel speeds……the list goes on. Also is the ECU/Engine harness a stand-alone item or is it entwined in the cars main harness? As luck would have it the Mazda/Probe engine has a separate harness & a lot of information is available on the net.
Cooling- Front mounted radiators help with the weight distribution. I have a mid mounted rad with HUGE scoops. Totally untested but time will tell, watch this space!!!!
Air intake. I have been able to utilise the shoulder inlet on the right hand side to feed cold air straight into the air box. The “elephant ears” will ensure that it is an inlet & not an outlet as could well be the case on the un-shrouded Nova shoulders.

You also need to consider if the engine will be happy running North/South rather than East/West. Will the sump need rebaffeling to keep the pick up tube submersed in breaking & accelerating.??

Then there is engine bracing to help support the additional weight, breaks to deal with the increased speed/weight.

SO choose carefully and do your homework. Check the net and find out if it has been done before. The Mazda/probe engine has been fitted to numerous bugs back in OZ. I found a lot of useful information from a guy that has one in his on/off road Manx bug. He made his own adapter plate, but is a CAD expert and so could draw it on PC & then have it CNC machined.
I “borrowed” a couple of the pictures he had posted that show a scaled overlay of the Mazda engine on the VW engine/gear box

Enjoy
Bushboy

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/bushboy554/KL_VWoverlay2.gif

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/bushboy554/KL_VWoverlay1.gif

adrenaline
28-03-2008, 08:11 PM
Bushboy,

Many thanks for such an in-depth reply......I just needed some of my own thoughts on the subject confirming by someone who has already 'been there and done that'.......

The overlays, by the way, are very interesting.....

Well, I may live to regret this choice, but I have decided to go Ford V6....duratec 2.5l....from the Mondeo ST24.....the reasons why I have decided to go Duratec......well......


At the heart of the ST24 is Ford's smooth and willing Duratec 2.5 litre, quad cam, 24-valve all-alloy V6, which produces 125kW @ 6250 rpm and 220Nm of torque at 4250 rpm. It is the perfect complement to the Mondeo's acclaimed ride and handling package.The ST24 powerplant was a truly global effort designed to set new standards in durability, reliability, emission levels and operating costs.Ford powertrain engineers in Merkenich and Dunton worked closely with powertrain operations in Dearborn to ensure that the engine met aggressive weight, durability and noise, vibration and harshness (NVH) targets. The engine is manufactured at the Cleveland engine plant in the USA.LightweightThe all-alloy V6 is one of the world's smallest and lightest V6 engines. The 24-valve engine was the first production volume powerplant to have been made using the patented Cosworth casting process developed for Formula One racing. It was also one of the first engines to feature lightweight fabricated camshafts.The Cosworth casting process provides greater accuracy in casting, allowing a reduction in the thickness and weight of cast walls without sacrificing strength.DurableTo extend the service life of the engine, extensive work was done on reducing friction and wear throughout the engine.The design involved substantial use ofall-alloy engine uses aluminium castings for the engine block and head, an advanced engine management system, combined with low-friction components, hydraulic lash adjusters, patented chain tensioners and extended-life spark plugs.The architecture of the engine provides ample space in the cylinder linings for optimum water cooling and heat distribution during high speed driving on European autobahns.More than 2 million kilometres of accelerated durability testing in vehicles have confirmed the vehicle's durability and reliability.EfficiencyThe Duratec's four-valve-per-cylinder, variable-length induction system allows the engine to breathe efficiently at high speed, while still providing strong torque, good fuel economy and low emission levels at low speeds.At engine speeds below 3200rpm the port throttles in the shorter intake pipes remain closed to maximise low-end torque. At 3200 rpm the port throttles open to allow the engine to breathe more freely. The system means that more than 170Nm of torque is available throughout the driving range (from idle to red line).The engine has a broad torque band, with 90% of its peak 220Nm delivered between 2000rpm and 5800rpm.Noise Vibration and HarshnessFord conducted extensive acoustic and vibrational analysis to pinpoint and tackle major sources of NVH. Advanced finite element computer modelling ensured that the structure of the cylinder block and head assembly optimised NVH performance.The crankcase was identified as a major source of engine noise. and As a result, engineers developed a rigid reinforcing brace for the lower crankcase chamber to reduce NVH and at the same time reduce the potential for oil leaks. The structure was further reinforced by a ribbed aluminium structural oil pan.Ford again drew on its racing expertise in the development of the crankshaft, using a forged steel shaft to increase strength while reducing the potential for vibration and fatigue.The use of a stiff block aluminium alloy casting heavily reinforced by internal webs and external ribs also dampens NVH.The four overhead camshafts are driven by 'silent' long-life inverted-tooth chains fitted with automatic hydraulic tensioners.Special attention was paid to the front end accessory drives, which are another main potential source of noise. A single serpentine poly-vee belt was used for the accessory drives. Items such as the alternator and power steering pump were directly mounted to the engine block to further reduce potential any noise and or vibration.The camshaft design also helps to reduce NVH. The tubular, fabricated camshafts produce significantly less inertia and are fitted with dampers, while low-friction rollers operate the valves

One of the main decision makers was the statement that it is on of the smallest and lightest V6s in production......it has a broad spread of tourque and any engine Cosworth have had a hand in the production of can't be half bad......the engine wiring and ECU can be easily seperated out from the main loom......oh and 170 of those very nice Ford 'ponies' will certainly be a very welcome addition to the Nova......

Kennedy engineering list an adaptor kit for this engine.....well they do for the Ford Contour V6 which is the American equivalent.........so all I will need is a very big hammer and a miracle to get the wiring sorted out......

I may live to regret this decision.......a Beetle engine would be so much more simple.............

jimcub
29-03-2008, 12:57 AM
May the best set of reins keep her under control.