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Gdog98012
04-06-2009, 04:39 AM
Hey there people. Hope all is well with you.. I have a question! I have a vw motor and a brand new reduction gear starter. For some reason my motor will only turn over once then stops. I know the starter is not binding cause the first rotation is probelm free. If I take the spark plugs out it cranks over fine. (no compression) I have normal compression in the cylinders by the way. Could it be a weak ground? Im at a loss to get this project moving forward from this point. :crossfinger: :help:

Peter
04-06-2009, 11:45 AM
Sounds weird! have you check the stupid list? :dunce:
Are the plugs the wrong sort, as in too long or extended nose and hitting the pistons on TDC?
Is the engine rotating in the correct direction (clockwise looking from rear) because you may have the wrong starter or it's working incorrectly?
Have you got the earth strap from gearbox to chassis at the bell housing mount?
Are you running heavy enough cable to the starter from the battery?
Checked battery connections?
Checked eyelett connections on cables?
Have you earthed the battery with a good chunky earth strap direct to chassis?
If yes to the above then swap the starter for another and try it again thereby eliminating the starter motor or not as the case may be.

letterman7
04-06-2009, 01:12 PM
Pete's got a great starting list (no pun) there. Geared starters do take a bit more battery power, so make sure the battery is up to snuff. If memory serves, that motor you bought is a turbo off a sandrail, right? Even if it isn't, that is a strange symptom to have. Only a high compression engine and a low battery would possibly cause that. But Pete's right - pull the plugs again and check the tips, then the piston tops for damage first.

Gdog98012
04-06-2009, 06:17 PM
plugs are the correct ones and they are not hitting the top of the pistons. The ground strap from the gearbox to the chassis and battery may be the problem. Im buying new ones today. I am using a battery out of my truck(about 5 years old now) and im using the orginal ground strap. Myabe a new one is in order. Thanks for the help.

Spacenut
04-06-2009, 06:21 PM
Not sure if its the case with VW engines, but some ignition distributors can be installed 180° out of phase, so the pistons are banging when they should be blowing etc. This problem wouldn't show up on a compression test as the valve opening sequence is still correct.

Just a thought if all of the above draws a blank. Good luck!

Lauren

letterman7
04-06-2009, 07:21 PM
Well, easy test: put jumper cables from a fresh battery right to the starter with the ground to the bottom starter mounting bolt. If it cranks then, you know you've got a weak ground and/or battery!

Peter
04-06-2009, 09:19 PM
I'm just glad I don't live in CA, (wouldn't mind working with Chip Foose though) I would be sooo broke as I know of so many VW shops in the state I would be maxed out on the CC in a week! Hang on, didn't I do that anyway by Ebay and good ol' USPS? :laugh:

Brastic
05-06-2009, 07:05 PM
It is easy to spend time and money on cars here in California. The car culture is strong with car shows, swap meets almost every weekend and year round flee markets. Then there is that little rain, lots of sun shine and thousands of miles of twisty roads. The down side is no one car afford to live here and the government does not like kit cars.

Gdog98012
18-06-2009, 04:47 AM
I have tried to jump it from the battery in my truck. The only difference is I used the top bolt for the ground. I will try the bottom instead. Thanks for the info.

Peter
18-06-2009, 02:39 PM
If you jumped with a good battery directly with neg. to the starter mounting bolt, (doesn't matter which) and straight onto the solenoid/starter motor bolt with poss. then it only leaves two things, starter or engine.
If the engine turns over clockwise by hand with the plugs OUT then the mechanicals seem OK and it might be firing too soon on the compression upstroke, (kicking back) or the starter is naff and a quick swap will check that.
Quick check on the dizzy, with number one, (that's the one nearest the starter motor) at tdc compression, the rotor arm should line it's little mark with a mark on the dizzy body roughly at the 5-o-clock position, this is also number one plug lead position on the cap. Then it’s just a matter of double checking the points gap (if you have any) and double check the firing order.

Peter
08-07-2009, 12:53 PM
Did you ever resolve this? :confused1:

Gdog98012
02-08-2009, 11:34 PM
Sorry it took so long to reply. I have not resolved this. In fact I have gotten to the point where I have given up. I am just going to pay someone to get it running for me.

Gdog98012
03-08-2009, 11:41 PM
Well people a little good news to tell. One thing I did not do is physically count the number of teeth on the flywheel I have on my motor. I was under the impression (cause I was told) that it had come off a vehicle with a 12v system. Apparently I was mistaken. I physically counted the number of teeth on the flywheel today and it only had 109. Just like for a 6v system. I am going to put everything back together and remount the engine and fire it up with new 12v flywheel at 200mm and new clutch kit. Damn, just goes to show, sometimes the smallest things overlooked can wreak havoc on someones nerves. Wish me luck.

Spacenut
04-08-2009, 08:05 AM
So the 12V starter pinion was binding on the 6V flywheel ring gear? Sounds like a plausible explanation. I must admit we were all starting to scratch our heads with this one :D

Perhaps bizarrely I had the same problem trying to use a derailler chain on my bicycle :confused1: My '73 Moulton has chain rings designed for single-speed chain (because it uses planetary hub gears), which is narrower and is designed to mesh with deeper teeth (because the chain doesn't have to skip on and off as you change gear). Putting the derailler chain on caused each link to ride up on the chainring teeth to the point where it was actually skipping teeth. You couldn't put any load on it at all. Applied to your vehicle analogy, the starter pinion teeth were probably doing the same thing, trying to ride up the flywheel teeth. That would put a large side load on the pinion shaft, causing the motor to jam. Starter motors are pretty tough, so there is unlikely to be any serious damage, unless the pinion shaft is bent - might be worth spinning the motor over on the bench to check the pinion runs true before you refit it.

Good luck Gdog, I think you might be on to a winner this time!

Lauren

Gdog98012
05-08-2009, 02:38 AM
Thanks Spacenut. I will check the starter for problems. That is when I can get the flywheel off. I tried everything in my arsenal today remove the gland nut. I spent almost all day on it today and it didn't even budge. I used a breaker bar, box wrench, electric impact gun (2600 inch lbs), I tapped it using a metal bar on the nut and a hammer. This thing is being very stubborn.

letterman7
05-08-2009, 01:19 PM
No, it's the fact that gland nuts are on there at more than 270 foot-pounds of torque. You'll need a flywheel lock and preferably a Torque-Meister that will put less strain on the nut and camshaft than the impact wrench. Even though the impact gun is rated at 2600 in/lbs, it's still going to need help if the nut has never been off.

Get yourself this http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... C10%2D7036 (http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D7036) and this http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... C10%2D7025 (http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D7025) and possibly a new gland nut and bearing race. BUT before doing all that....

Is the ring gear chewed up at all? Have you been running a 12 volt starter with the 6 volt ring? If the ring gear is still looking ok, get another 6 volt starter, and swap the solenoid with the 12 volt solenoid. A much, much simpler process. The starter will spin twice as fast, which is fine as long as you don't keep power to it. I had that setup for years with no problems. Oh, and get the right clutch kit for it, too, as the 12V kit won't work!

Peter
05-08-2009, 04:33 PM
Gland nuts are not stubborn, they are bloody tight!, you MUST use a flywheel locking block and a long bar with a couple of blokes hanging on to the engine for dear life or a geared multiplyer bar. With the flywheel locked you can smake it with a club hammer but not advised.
Whilst youar at it go for a 12lb flywheel and a Kennady 1700 clutch kit like wot I got.

Gdog98012
06-08-2009, 04:15 AM
Well thanks guys for the help. I got the flywheel off. It was torqued to 254 foot lbs. WOW... So, anyways, got the flywheel off and got another one for it for 9 dollars. 200mm, 130 tooth, 8 dowel. Newly machined clutch, very clean. I will be putting it on tomorrow after I replace the rear main seal. Figure I may as well do that now while I can. More to come.

letterman7
06-08-2009, 12:57 PM
Which means you'll have to drill the end of the crank for the extra 4 dowels, of course....

Peter
06-08-2009, 05:21 PM
Or just ignore them

letterman7
06-08-2009, 09:04 PM
:wink: I guess that would depend on how sturdy the engine is to begin with. A 6 volt crank with a larger, heavier 12 volt flywheel? Lotta rotational mass there...I would think it would be easier to strip out the dowel holes. But I could be wrong!

Gdog98012
07-08-2009, 04:34 AM
The engine had an 8 dowel crank. All I had to do was put the other flywheel on. The new flywheel I put on is lightened by the way. Way lighter than normal. I got everything put back together and the motor is back on the car. I am going to crank it over tomorrow. Wish me luck,, lord knows I need it.

letterman7
07-08-2009, 01:17 PM
Wow...someone must have put some money in that engine at somepoint. I mean, really, why redo an old 6v engine with an 8 dowel crank? Whatever the case, good luck with the turn of the key! Don't forget to double check all your ground points and wiring!

Alzax3
07-08-2009, 07:21 PM
Good luck ......... how can you wait 'til tomorrow to find out? :D

Gdog98012
08-08-2009, 06:28 AM
Well guys good and bad news. The good news is: The motor cranked over just fine. No fires, nothing broke, and it just hummed while the starter was engaged. No internal issues or leaks. Bad news is: I cant get it to start. It acts like it wants to start but to no avail. I don't know if I have posted pictures of this motor or not. But look at the pictures thread to see them.

Alzax3
08-08-2009, 08:37 AM
Okay - you're well on the way to potentially having a working engine! Next thing is to work out why it isn't firing. Do you have a spark? Is it getting to the plugs? Have you static timed the distributer so that you have the spark at approximately the right time? If yes to all that, have you got fuel at the carb, and is it getting into the intake? Give us some answers to that little list, and we'll take you through what to do next........ :D

Gdog98012
08-08-2009, 04:58 PM
It sounds like it want to fire over but it's not getting much vacuum. You would think with a turbo you would be able to hear the sucking noise of air going into the motor. I will check what is on your list first. The vacuum is just something else to think about. Thanks.

Alzax3
08-08-2009, 08:16 PM
Don't think that the turbo would make a lot of odds, as it's not actually doing anything until there's an exhaust stream to make it spin!
If it doesn't sound like it's sucking, you'd better add a compression test - if there ain't no compression, it's not going to start! I've not got the figures for VWs to hand, but moggies want between 160 to 180 psi - and you want all the cylinders to be within a few pounds of each other. You do a test 'dry' then squirt some oil into each cylinder - if the reading rises, you've got worn rings/bores if it stays the same, you haven't. Then of course there's the tappets setting, if the valves aren't opening properly there won't be the proper compression - and if the valve timing is set wrong they'll be opening at the wrong times (can't remember how easy it is to get that wrong with a VW, but quite easy with other engines.......)

Do you know if the engine has ever run? I've seen the pics now in your other posting, and it's obviously heavily modded, but how much of it's history do you know about?

letterman7
08-08-2009, 09:11 PM
Oh...I thought you were ditching that turbo setup? That alone might be the issue - a plugged or restricted jet in that DCOE (which are notoriously hard to tune) will keep the engine from firing. Are you getting fuel into the intake? Take the air cleaner off and peer down the throat while someone else cranks the motor. Too many variables yet....

Johan
09-08-2009, 10:34 AM
Hi my friend if you were down here I would have been at your place to sort out the starter problem quick but an R80000 air ticket to visit will not be good with my bank manager. lets leave the idle chatter and solve the problem.

First if you have mentioned it sorry but if the engine as it is outside the car and you turn it over by hand does it make a full cirlce and is it moving freely?

The 6V flywheel and a 12V started will sound like two boxer dogs locked in a kennel it will make an ugly grinding noise. It is funny that you only get a single revolution out of the starter before it stuck.

To loosen the flywheel you need patience.Pleadse leave the chisel and the bigger hammer alone somewhere far away from the VW engine because hitlers revenge will be on you. :clapping: What has worked for me was a piece of 5mm x25mm about 150mm long withe two holes in it, the one hole tightened to the engine block at one of the top engine mounting poits and the other into the clutch plate mounting bolts. This will prevent the flywheel moving around. Then you can take a a3-4ft angle iron between two clutch boltson the flywheel and the it is time for a strong strong bar and a 36mm socket to engage in the glandnut on the flywheel. The angle iron trick is to give you some leverage and to keep the engine still on the ground. This is the time where you go out and take 2 redbulls or a monster energy drink and then you klimb on to the strong bar to loosen the nut.

Hope the advise helps.
D please do not throw in the towel because the first time that you will take you car out on the road will make up for every drop of sweat and blood you have lost in the process.

Eagle greetings

Johan

Spacenut
09-08-2009, 05:42 PM
Hmm - I forgot about the turbo too. So its probably a low-compression engine, and to save the internals from collapse the carb is on the low-pressure side (but is unfortunately a fixed jet Weber, as Rick says).

The turbo won't spin up during starting, and is unlikely to provide any boost at idle. So it will just be down to the "suck" in the pistons.

Try putting your hand over the carb mouths while someone cranks the engine. Can you feel any suction? Is the sucking in evenly spaced pulses? If not, maybe a piston is holed (a compression test might be an idea). Blocking the intakes while cranking the engine over will draw the fuel in anyway, creating a richer mixture that will help to fire the engine if your sparks are in order. Its a low-compression unit so it will need all the help it can get. Don't forget that if you are using a mechanical fuel pump you will need to crank the engine for a good 15 seconds to prime the carb.

I hope the previous owner used decent air filters - sand could have made a real mess of the engine and turbo.

Good luck Gdog!

Lauren

Gdog98012
10-08-2009, 03:48 AM
Got it fired over today and it ran for a little while. I have no fuel pump or anything. I manually filled the float in the carb. After I did that is when it started to run and keept running for a little while. I have been using a spray bottle to get the fuel into the carb intake. This engine sounds GREAT. I did hear the carb suck in some air when using some starting fluid. More to come after I get a fuel tank, fuel pump and the carb rebuild kit. I am ordering that stuff some time in the next week.

letterman7
10-08-2009, 12:50 PM
Got it fired over today and it ran for a little while. I have no fuel pump or anything. I manually filled the float in the carb. After I did that is when it started to run and keept running for a little while. I have been using a spray bottle to get the fuel into the carb intake. This engine sounds GREAT. I did hear the carb suck in some air when using some starting fluid. More to come after I get a fuel tank, fuel pump and the carb rebuild kit. I am ordering that stuff some time in the next week.

:giveup: Don't you think that may have been the issue all along?

Gdog98012
10-08-2009, 03:40 PM
yes and no letterman7. The biggest problem was the 6V flywheel. As for not having a fuel pump. That is just a formality. You can use spray bottles to simulate a fuel pump as long as you fill the float in the carb. My father did that for years. I still need a couple of parts for the carb to be able to hook up a fuel line. At least now I know the engine works without any major issues and I can move forward.

Gdog98012
14-09-2009, 05:43 AM
I have got the motor on the car now and have been trying to fix my turbo problem. I have a 45 dcoe152 carb and a Rayjay T3 turbo. I can get the motor to turn over. but it will not stay in ilde and I actually had blew the carb off of the intake manifold the other day. Nothing was damaged. I think the turbo is not spinning or the waste gate is not working. Need help if possible. Sorry I have not been posting but I am now a full time college student and do not have a lot of free time.