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benherron
06-11-2009, 02:31 AM
Anyone tinkered with any beetle superchargers? Anyone got/had one on their nova/avante/etc/etc?

A little research suggests Judson seem to be the ones to go for, since a few sites reckon there are only about 3 Shorrock runners in the uk adm.
However both are commanding 4 figure sums, any other ones available?

I like the uniqueness of it and from what a few site have suggested, it's not too major a job.

LotusNova
06-11-2009, 10:52 AM
It depends what you want really...

From a perspective of historical pedigree, it would be a cool add-on. As far as boost per buck goes, maybe not the best solution.

I believe the Judson's are a sliding vane design - a bit like a Roots but marginally less efficient (cf. the Roots types themselves being generally the least efficient of the 3 main supercharger types). If they are going for 4 figure sums, and your primary goal is performance, there are probably more cost-effective solutions out there.

mattswan2512
06-11-2009, 11:00 AM
Hi there I don't know about the supercharger but if you do go ahead you may have to think about other things such as IRS for a start and upgrading the rear drum to disc if on a beetle chassis because I expect you will c a big difference in performance I should imagine. That's is of course if you haven't already made those changes

benherron
06-11-2009, 12:23 PM
Hmmm yeh it'd definitely have to be one of the last things to do. But wud certainly be different, they also say your engine needs to be in top condition for them to be effective.
A little bit more research and I found that the judsons are only designed for early 1200s anyway.
It seems super chargers are out of favour due to the lack of space in the beetles bay. Something which isn't too muh of an issue with our cars, so maybe it's something to think of.
Cost wise, if you cud buy a modern one and somehow mount it for under 500quid which you'd usually pay for dual webers, it may be worth it. Some folks are trying to use the eaton from the new mini, I think I'll look a little more into that.

mattswan2512
06-11-2009, 01:38 PM
This whole super charger thing has got me thinking it may be a route I may look at because it gives you instant performance as long as it is set up correctly whilst giving you around the same mpg. Plus it is an easier instalation that a turbo not that a turbo ever crossed my mind. Half the challenge is getting your engine running as good as it can and then locating the correct supercharger.

Big Birds Car
06-11-2009, 01:59 PM
Plus it is an easier instalation that a turbo

I would disagree with this statement, I would suggest that it is easier to fabricate an exhaust on each side to take two small turbo's coupled with say two SU carb's and associated ducting to the inlet manifold than it is to mount a supercharger and re-engineer the inlet manifold, drive pulley's, tensioners, fan shrouding etc. Unless you are doing a V8.
In basic design the turbo's just need the two exhaust to come together at a square plate and then fabricate your remaining exhaust as usual. The exhaust "manifold" holds them in place and then you add the SU carb on flexible ducting to the turbo and from the turbo to the inlet manifold. Internal waste gates stop over pressurising and the SU can be fairly easily tuned by use of differing needles.
You will get more economy and a greater top end with the use of turbo's as opposed to a supercharger and so long as you use small turbo's you will eliminate a lot of the lag that big turbo cars have.

Kym
06-11-2009, 04:01 PM
Just take the Dak Dak out and throw away the 40 hp then pick up a 2.2 NA Boxer from a Subaru 137hp and no turbo or really go nuts and go 13B turbo Rotor or WRX 2 litre turbo you wont be able to wipe the smile off your face.

Kym

benherron
06-11-2009, 04:50 PM
Seems you can pick up an Eaon M45 for around £300-350 with all the pulleys etc.
This is the standard one from the bmw mini cooper s.

So now it's how'd you'd fit it? what would you need machining? and if you could make so the whole kit would come under £500. and if it would work with a Nikki carb? :w00t: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:

mattswan2512
06-11-2009, 06:27 PM
Just take the Dak Dak out and throw away the 40 hp then pick up a 2.2 NA Boxer from a Subaru 137hp and no turbo or really go nuts and go 13B turbo Rotor or WRX 2 litre turbo you wont be able to wipe the smile off your face.

Kym
All this sounds alot easier to say than do especialy if your not a pro mechanic, plus you have got to worry about cooling wich sounds like loads of hassle to me so not only do you have engine cost but if your like me (learning) some mechanic costs

bushboy
06-11-2009, 10:28 PM
[/quote]
All this sounds alot easier to say than do especialy if your not a pro mechanic, plus you have got to worry about cooling wich sounds like loads of hassle to me so not only do you have engine cost but if your like me (learning) some mechanic costs[/quote]

No mechanical skills & you want to fit a blower,,it's going to end in :cry: another unfinished project on ebay.

What this forum gives is good advice & different perspectives. Listen to it. Play it simple & straight, dont try to sprint before you are even born. Get it on the road, cut your teeth, enjoy it & then go balistic with blowers and complicated builds.

Good luck & remember I have got 170 naturally aspriated horses for about £600.

bushboy

mattswan2512
06-11-2009, 11:16 PM
oh she is def on the road and i love driving it as is a standard 1600 beetle engine but it def needs more poke because she struggles up hills wich could well be lack of compression. im not exactly a complete rookie i was a driver mech in the army but on track vehicles so cars im a bit :confused1: on but basic principles are there. but when you guys change body shell shape etc or add air scoops im sat here wishing i had an ounce of you guys knowledge

benherron
06-11-2009, 11:29 PM
Bushboy that slightly negative... :protest: ... where's the usual EuroNova 'If we can make a Beetle look like a Nova then we can do anything' attitude.
Who brought one of these cars to "Play it simple & straight" If we wanted that we would've kept the beetle?
Unfinished projects aren't totally a bad thing either, (although the ones where the owners cut up the body are sad i admit) surely they mean new (young) enthusiasts can have a go too.

mattswan2512- I will try to be more helpful if your interested in supercharging your vw motor.

Seems the people to talk to have made a yahoo group called blownbugs,

[/url]http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/blownbugs[/url]

The positive being they're all in one place, the negative they seem to use it less than the Eagle Owners Forum and my application to join the group is still yet to be approved so I cant even see anything they've talked about in the past.

Also have a look at Dick Landy's company.
The company is supposed to be the top dog in superchargers, Dick Landy's supposedly quite famous over there.They produce simple bolt on ones for vw engines but they're only in USA and cost upwards of $2000.
For $2000 you get a bolt on supercharger and special carb. You (again supposedly) only need to drill a mounting hole in the dynamo stand, and make a release valve in the manifold for possible backfires.

[/url]http://www.dicklandy.com/[/url]

They're both for vw motors though so if you've got a non-vw motor....ive no idea.

mattswan2512
06-11-2009, 11:50 PM
thankyou very much ben for your tips and help and the fact that you recognise everyone has to start somewere

letterman7
07-11-2009, 03:17 AM
Hi Matt and Ben,
I'm stepping in for my 'words of wisdom' for what it's worth. Supercharging is actually easier than you think, but you will need to fabricate the induction system to handle whatever blower you're thinking. The Landy system is a beautiful site to see, unfortunately the business is closed and the only way to get the true Landy system is to find a used one. BUT the one thing that you need to remember is: Pressure in is internal pressure. If the bottom end of your motor isn't built to handle it, you're going to find little pieces all over the road.
Better alternative: turbocharging. A self contained, already proven EFI system is available here in the States http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=286 already plug and play, you just specify the ignition and injector sizes. It's not cheap, and really meant for motors 1915 or larger, but if you're brave you could probably plunk one on a stock 1600 if you keep the boost under control.

But really, start with the basics on the motor before considering adding a boost system. A weak engine with a boost is asking for trouble. My little 1300 kept up with traffic just fine, and all it had was a hotter cam and a dual port head system with twin carbs. It easily dusted musclecars off the line, though cubic inches took over after a while. But it was fun to see the expressions on their faces! Tune up or rebuild your motor, or even buy a new turn key one that's a little larger. An 1835 with twin carbs will probably provide all the fun you can handle for a while all at a cost of less than any boosted system... and less headaches!

benherron
07-11-2009, 11:00 AM
Hi Letterman,

Cheers for your 'worlds of wisdom' and Bushboy I wasn't bitching at all, us young'n's do totally appreciate your opinions, and your immediate bin-there-done-this advice is mastercard priceless.

I merely asked about the supercharger as an alternative to dual carbs, which i have nothing against, as neither do i with turbos. Personally though I feel turbos are for the people that want ultimate power.....how many hp does yours put out down a long road.
My opinion of superchargers is that they give you more usable day-to-day torque than turbos which in the real world of overtaking, going up hills etc is what you want, even if the final hp 'bang for buck' comparison against turbos is lower. Plus you get that lovely whine, and a unique engine.

Admittedly the whole idea was due to the Beetle forums saying......"we all want superchargers.......but there's no space under the hood" at which point my brain said ".....but you do Ben"

Thats a huge shame about the Landy company, I dread to think what used Landy's would command if the originals cost so much. From what I heard it wasn't totally solid company during trading, the vw orders were made in bulks of 10, so if you were number 1 you would have to wait (some people up to a year) for Mr number 10 to put his money down.

The CB turbo kit certainly looks impressive, the throttle bodies look pretty weird missing the air filters on top, but kinda cool. Any idea on price as there aren't any on the site, you did say expensive though?

"An 1835 with twin carbs will probably provide all the fun you can handle for a while all at a cost of less than any boosted system... and less headaches"
ultimately.......sigh.....yes i agree....

.......but humour me....let a boy dream.......tell me more about this custom input manifold you talk of.
Now im guessing you'll need two...one from inlet pipe flange to SC then one from SC to carb.
and im also guessing what these look like will determine on how you line up the SC, how far away from the inlet pipe it needs to move to line up with the pulleys.
I know the mini's M45 Eaton is an awkward one to fit due to the in/out shape of an 'L' going the opposite way to the pulley, but the merc version is different and i think goes in/out on the same side, which would owe to it being mounted on it's side with two 90'degree manifolds (one down one up, although this would mean the SC outlet was perfectly lined up with the inlet pipe which i seriously doubt)

generally what would a engineering company charge per hour to machine such manifolds?
Brown and Geeson (who did the original cast manifold for my Nikki) are 15 mins down the road from me, but seem they have grown hugely and (who knew) are the only official MONO importers in the UK..........so too big a company for one offs then.

Gunna
07-11-2009, 12:02 PM
Dream away Ben :cheers: ( see pic from a trike)

I had a quick look at the comments above. If your 1600 twin carb (I had exactly the same setup in 1983) is struggling up hills it's either very low on compression or it's a very very steep hill. Otherwise remove the trailer off the towball and take out the 20 sandbags holding it down (joke).

Just a note on Turbo verses Supercharger (I run a 1800 yamaha motor in my jetski that has a HKS supercharger as standard). Superchargers in any form are parasitic to the engine where turbo's are not. In other words the motor needs to use HP to drive the supercharger wheel due to friction. Turbo's don't. (I am planning to loose the supercharger off my yami for a turbo mext year). Yes, turbo's do have that "lag time" but unless your on the race track, I'd think you'd live with it. Otherwise just downshift another gear and watch the road disappear.

My current Eureka runs a Mazda 12a Turbo and the turbo starts kicking in at about 2400rpm. Gotta get used to it.

Hope this helps your planning process.

PS I to spent some time with tracked vechiles (Leopards and APCs). Nova's are a different kettle of fish. :crylol:

Gunna
07-11-2009, 12:06 PM
Another pic from the Ozzy site.

Big Birds Car
07-11-2009, 12:13 PM
Didn't realise that your engine is so asthmatic, bolting any form of forced induction onto it in the state it is at the moment will only last a short while before the inevitable bang!

Get a solid well performing engine to start with and then alter it. If you are determined to go forced induction then specify a lower compression when building the engine so that when time, funds and opportunity come along you can indeed fit the supercharger or turbo's (I still think your ideas about turbo's are out-dated, yes there are some supercharged vehicles out there, Mini's, Merc's and top end Jags etc. but there are far more turbo charged cars manufactured out there, why? cost and ease).

Alternatively have you throught about bike carbs, an awful lot of kit car owners are going this route because the carbs are easily bought for between £50-£150 a set of four, you can make your own inlet manifolds out of mild steel, they give greater response (throttle bodies even more so) and look good when you open the bonnet (if installed nicely). The plus side is that you could sort this out and fit it all to your, errm knackard? engine, and not blow it up. For some carbs you will need an electric fuel pump and an electronic box of bits but all in if you do some hunting you could be looking at less than £200 (plus some time on a rolling road to set it up for the best). Add a cam and an extractor exhaust and you could get ooooooohhh maybe 45bhp out of the DAK DAK :laugh: Only joking I don't know what you could get realistically out of a bug engine for little money but it would be an improvement both looks and performance wise.

If you have basic mechanical skills then you should be very capable of doing a water cooled conversion as there are many adaptors to fit engines to the transmission easy enough and then you would have to do some plumbing, it's only tubing front to back (all mine is actually in the back with only heater hoses to the front) and a radiator somewhere up front. It is less to worry about than machining works, new manifolds etc. The engine bay will take it but not sure your right foot in the wet will. :rofl:

No one here will ever stop you dreaming of what you could or would like to do (especially when they get to know you) but as a newbie BB was only saying what most of the rest of us were thinking (trust an Aussie) Some of us are still just big kids at heart but have either been there and done it or helped someone else do it or given up on something in the past. As far as I'm concerned you are approaching this in the best way by asking first and getting the info you need, I have scrapped at least two projects in the past through not having the funds to carry something through that I started on a whim or because it was taking too long to do (BB doesn't come into the takes too long bit, just ask how long it took him to get the reek on the road but he does come into the change of mind bit).

Good luck.

Just as I was about to post Gunna's one came up. Nice looking trike there. At first it looks complicated because it ia all tig welded tubing and polished but go through it from the exhaust to the turbo then to the top for the manifold and back down for the inlets to the head (very basic in principal).

benherron
07-11-2009, 12:23 PM
Haha matts the one with the 1600 twin, mines a bog 1300. And I'd have no idea what I'm doing on a tracked vehicle.

Dw everyone I have a long long list before I actually think about bolting one on.

Talking of dick landy there is one in this months volksworld pg46 if anyone reads. Looks epic in a grounded rusty oval, no lid and the top jut sits level with the bottom of the rear window.

Talking of rebuilds etc has anyone brought the diy engines like remtec advertised usually as silver gold green versions, effectively new engine minus fan, carb, manifolds, exhaust, altenator etc

Gunna
07-11-2009, 12:32 PM
Haha matts the one with the 1600 twin, mines a bog 1300. And I'd have no idea what I'm doing on a tracked vehicle.


Sorry 'bout that Ben :( , long day and dyslexier. But you know what I mean, I hope :thumbup: .
Dean

Gunna
07-11-2009, 12:35 PM
Just as I was about to post Gunna's one came up. Nice looking trike there. At first it looks complicated because it ia all tig welded tubing and polished but go through it from the exhaust to the turbo then to the top for the manifold and back down for the inlets to the head (very basic in principal).

Thanks for the comment BBC. I found that pic a great way to optically explain to my mind the setup of a twin turbo. Hope it helps others.

mattswan2512
07-11-2009, 08:14 PM
I do agree with you ben the sound from a charger is music to my ears and if i had my way i would love a 2.7 porker boxster engine in because i loved my porsche boxster i had and it deliverd enough horses for me but i think im going to look at a rotary 13b it wont be till next year but atleast there is room for your cooling (intercoolers) just need to plan my air inlets and gearbox but for now im very happy with my 1600 puk puk and i also do promise that my car will NOT end up on ebay as unfinished but like you ben i do appreciate the advice from those who have made mistakes so we dont have to :thumbup:

bushboy
07-11-2009, 08:16 PM
Shoot first & ask questions later. Sorry if I was too blunt. I'm all for dreaming, but at some stage you have to wake up (it only took me 16 years). I have nothing against blown motors. Turbos' allow you to poodle about town and still get a reasonable mpg figure but when you turn the wick up it gives you the power you want, slightly after you really wanted it. superchargers give you more power from idle.

So keep gathering your info, make your plans, just make them reachable. Either via your skills, or your cheque book.

bushboy

Gunna
07-11-2009, 10:28 PM
Shoot first & ask questions later. Sorry if I was too blunt.
bushboy

That's Ozzys for yar!!!! :rofl: It's in the convict blood from the colonies.

Sorry boys :bye2: , just trying to lighten it up a bit.

You do have a point Bushy, you can very quicky run out of one or all three things: interest, time, money. Been there done that.

That's why I brought a completed and registered car in my late 4teey's and don't have to do much to improve it.