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I need help. I cannot start my Nova,
It was running well, but the Carburettor fixing bolts failed on the M3 of all places, so I got a new Solex Carb. fitted it and it stopped OR after fitting I could not start it.
Thinking it must be the New Carb I did all the checks I could think off, and found the fuel pump was not pumping to the carb. So I fixed that, but still could not get it to start or fire.
I have changed, Coil 3 times, Distributer & Distributer Cap X 2, Point’s, Plugs X 2, & lead’s X 2.
Checked all the Electrical connections, tried fitting New neon tester, as the old one had damage, on the plug leads but no spark. Changed ignition from points to electronic and tried again, still no spark, changed it back and re-set points and still no spark.
I have powered the coil from an independent 12V supply same result. The only thing I have to replace is the condenser on the point’s system which I will get tomorrow and try again.
I have noticed, that the TDC on cylinder number 1 changes, each time I remove and replace the distributer, not just the cap! the complete unit shaft & cap. Which I have done several times with the same result … no spark.
BUT if anyone can think of a “check or Test” which I should try. I would be most grateful
Rabs
Spacenut
16-04-2013, 07:09 PM
Hi Rabs - so you know there is +12v getting to the coil, and briefly grounding the negative coil terminal creates a fat spark, yes?
OK, are the points actually opening as the shaft turns? Is the shaft actually turning when the engine is turned over?
You simply have to be systematic - +12v at the coil - check; continuity from the coil negative to the points - check. Distributor shaft turning when engine is cranked - check; rotor arm in place, carbon centre contact intact, points gap set - check.
The condenser could be at fault, but would have to be dead short to cause your symptoms - this is not a typical capacitor failure mode.
Even if your timing is so far out that the engine will not start, you should still get a spark out of the coil lead - then go through each of the four plug leads and check that they all spark too.
If you are getting no spark at all, something in the above list must be at fault.
Good luck.
Lauren
MicksRedNova
16-04-2013, 07:28 PM
Lauren is spot on.
1. With a plug wired directly to the HT coil centre, and the plug body resting on bare engine, take the wire(s) off the coil that leads to the points/distributer and with the ignition on, you should get a good spark if you short the coil contact (the one without wires connected to it) directly to earth.
2. If that works the coil and ignition feed is proved OK.
3. Connect the wire back between coil and distibuter and turn the engine over. The plug still connected to the HT contact on the coil should spark well. This proves the points OK.
4. Reconnect everything and check with plug connected back to dizzy. This will prove Dizzy capb and leads.
Hope this helps.
Mick
NovaF4
16-04-2013, 07:38 PM
Rabs I'm amazed you managed to do all that on the M3. :outahere:
Sorry, I couldn't resist that one.
I've warmed everyone up on here about ignition and sparks so you are in good company. How frustrating though. I hope you get it sorted soon!
Giles
KEITHCANFIXIT
16-04-2013, 09:08 PM
As Lauren has rightly said, c:heck her list systematically, the last time I had a problem like that was on a Peugeot 504 estate ( well somebody had to own one ) and it turned out the was no worm drive to the base of the distributor shaft so the rotor was not turning and generating a spark, take cap of ,turn engine over to make sure it is spinning ( take rotor arm off in case it is loose and flies off) have someone turnover while you watch it. Good to see your back, but don't get stressed please.
Keith
Thanks for the advice everyone
http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/rabshaw/P4170005.jpg (http://s1069.photobucket.com/user/rabshaw/media/P4170005.jpg.html)
well that did not work
http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/rabshaw/P4170005.jpg (http://s1069.photobucket.com/user/rabshaw/media/P4170005.jpg.html)
all the bit's which I have to work with. and it looks like it did not work that time as well.
Got it backfiring but not running, then the batteries gave out. I did have vapour coming back out the Carb.
So the problem now is back to the Carb and lack of fuel.
So when the batteries are charged I will give it another try.
The Elect problem was found to be the coil or the return cable ….. for some reason I had an another cable from the (-) terminal on the coil to the body which stopped it from working, when it was removed I got a spark not a good one but it did spark. “Thanks Mick ….. tried the single cable from the coil trick, worked great”
Rabs
Big Birds Car
17-04-2013, 10:02 PM
If you now have a spark and it's blowing back through the carb I would go back to basics on the timing before doing anything else.
Thanks for the help everyone
I had to go back to basics and start again.
Had the rocker cover off to check that TDC No1 was on the firing stroke which it was. BUT!
Re-set the Timing (Electrically)
Removed the plugs and checked them 1 at a time ….. All good
Run it up with the plugs out and checked for a spark … All good
Replaced the plugs ‘without touching anything else’ would not fire? BUT it did blow back through the Carb?
I have had this before and the timing was 1800 out, But on another car? So I swapped the leads 1 for 3 and 2 for 4 …… Just to try it? …….Vroom Vroom running, rough but running. Messed around with the new Solex and it’s better still not as good as it should be but it run’s.
Checked the firing order and it’s 3,2,1&4 see photos (If I can get them from Photobucket) I do not understand it but don’t really care as Sarah is running. I will try the new Electronic ignition system tomorrow, now that I have the original points system working which I can fall back on should the new stuff not work.
Again thanks for all the help I was starting to think I was going mad (or more mad than normal)
RABS
http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/rabshaw/P4170001.jpg (http://s1069.photobucket.com/user/rabshaw/media/P4170001.jpg.html)
Pully is set to TDC No 1 after checking with the rocker cover off
http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/rabshaw/P4170007.jpg (http://s1069.photobucket.com/user/rabshaw/media/P4170007.jpg.html)
Note the position of the rotor arm pointing to TDC No 1
http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/rabshaw/P4170003.jpg (http://s1069.photobucket.com/user/rabshaw/media/P4170003.jpg.html)
New Dizy with the TDC No1 Rotor arm is pointing to No 3?
http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/rabshaw/P4170002.jpg (http://s1069.photobucket.com/user/rabshaw/media/P4170002.jpg.html)
Original Dizy with the rotor arm pointing to No 1 TDC
After spending the best part of the afternoon I found the reason it would not fire ???
http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/rabshaw/P4170009.jpg (http://s1069.photobucket.com/user/rabshaw/media/P4170009.jpg.html)
found this on the back of the car? small but quite important
Peter
19-04-2013, 06:16 PM
TDC #1 rotor should be at 5-o-clock, (pointing at pulley roughly) , there is a notch on the dizzy body and one on the rotor 'shoe', these line up at TDC #1
Plug leads should be from #1 at 5-o-clock. #4 at 7-o-clock, #3 at 11-o-clock and #2at 2-o-clock.
If the rotor does not line up as above you need to unclamp and lift the dizzy up pull the gear and re-engage it 180 so it does.
Peter
Thanks ... But please re-read
I only changed one thing at a time, and started from the beginning almost every time.
This is what I have ......... I set it up as it should be ….. several times (each time I removed part of it and replaced with new)
This is what I find to be a concern, each time I changed part of it, the notch in the pulley did not change notch in the Dizy body did not change but position of the shaft in the Dizy on which the rotor arm fits would change. (See photos)
I had the rocker cover off and turned the engine by hand … checked that it was on the “firing” TDC No1 and changed the Dizy for the New Electronic unit (New never been used) the position of the Rotor arm would change (see photo’s) Old & New … just weird, all I did was replace the Dizy, one (old) out and new back in did not move the engine.
Thought I was seeing things or going off my head or both by the end of the day, I swear things would just change, it would be as it should ……. I would turn the engine and nothing no firing ….. check it again and it was wrong.
Still it’s running now so I will change out the Old Dizy (as it has a lot of wear on the square section of the shaft) for the new Electronic unit and see what happens Watch this space!
Rabs
KEITHCANFIXIT
19-04-2013, 08:42 PM
Hi Rabs, without appearing to be a complete idiot, OK maybe I am, but am I not right in thinking there are 5 versions of the 009 distributor and another 4 versions off the (svda) vacuum advance model , just thinking outside the ballpark ,OK I am going :coat:
Keith.
Spacenut
19-04-2013, 08:45 PM
Sounds like the drive pegs at the base of the new distributor are in a different orientation from that of the original. This isn't a problem, if you connect the No.1 plug lead to the terminal the rotor arm is pointing at when the engine is at TDC. But if you try and follow a process where "the top left lead always goes to No.1", the engine will act like the timing is way out, which in effect it is.
On the Green Machine I had a problem with the vacuum canister fouling on the chassis when I repositioned the engine; I deliberately moved the distributor through 90°, and reconnected the plug leads accordingly. No more fouling. The spark plugs don't care which terminal on the distributor the spark comes from, as long as it arrives at the right time :D
Glad to hear the engine is now running - strobe time it up and hopefully all will be well. Can you go back to your old carb if the rough running persists?
Lauren
KEITHCANFIXIT
19-04-2013, 08:45 PM
Codicil to last message, is it my eyesight or is your old dizzy a 009 model, that is to say no vacuum advance
Keith
Peter
20-04-2013, 08:56 AM
You probably know this already but in case anyone reading this doesn't know, it's worth covering. The dizzy (any dizzy) will only fit in one position as the two pegs are off-set, the larger off-set faces to the front of the engine away from the crank pulley at TDC. In your photo you have the rotor pointing at 180 out.
A lot of people get confused by VW calling the end with the crank pulley the rear and the clutch end the front, opposite to a normal engine.
The drive shaft is another matter and has to be pulled from the case with a long bolt screwed into the centre, repositioning this means inserting it allowing for the twist of the gear until it sits at the correct position, (and there is a thin washer under it which is a sod to line up with the hole and I usually 'glue' it to the shaft with grease). There should be a spring in the centre hole. Unless the gear has been pulled there should be no change in its position.
If the rotor points to the 11-o-clock position at TDC then you have the engine at TDC exhaust stroke not compression stroke. with the rocker cover off you can see BOTH tappets rocking as you move the crank back and fowards over TDC exhaust stroke , (Exhaust closing, inlet opening), on TDC compression they don't move, (#3 would be on rock).
But as lauren says, as long as the sparks arrives at the right plug at the right time it doesn't really matter what position the dizzy body is in.
I have Pertronic electronic ignition in a 009 dizzy and Pertronic coil and 8mm silicone leads, great performance.
MicksRedNova
20-04-2013, 10:55 PM
After spending the best part of the afternoon I found the reason it would not fire ???
http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/rabshaw/P4170009.jpg (http://s1069.photobucket.com/user/rabshaw/media/P4170009.jpg.html)
found this on the back of the car? small but quite important
:oops2: Been there, done that!!
As Peter mentions below the dizzy should only fit one way due to locating peg on the shaft, but it is possible to have it pushed partly into the hole and be driven 'out of phase' by friction. This could be a reason for your 180 issue.
Mick
Peter
21-04-2013, 06:18 AM
We had a saying at Kawasaki, "No matter how experienced, anyone who says he doesn't need to read the manual is an idiot" :rtfm: Having said that, :blushing: how many times have I been guilty of it. :facepalm: too many. :whip:
Thanks to everyone for the advice and pointers they all help :rtfm: ..... even if I had not done everything from basics up, :rtfm: which I had! several times it's nice to know that I had, I am sure that you all know it get's to a point where you think there is something wrong and it's not you :cursing:
The problem which I HAVE is that the old Dizzy (009 type) is (not quite) 180 out with the new Dizzy (for the electronic conversion kit) which has a Vacuum advance see photos below
I set the car up on TDC No1 with the rocker cover off (so I could see & check)
http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/rabshaw/P4170001.jpg (http://s1069.photobucket.com/user/rabshaw/media/P4170001.jpg.html)
I removed the 009 Dizzy (see photo of it in position) and replaced with the conversion kit replaced the rotor arm (see photo) ensuring that the engine did not move, and you will note the position of the rotor arm.
http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/rabshaw/P4170002.jpg (http://s1069.photobucket.com/user/rabshaw/media/P4170002.jpg.html)
It dose not matter in which position the Dizzy ‘body’ is positioned, as the shaft can only fit in one way, BUT as you can see from the photos the 009 is at 11 o’clock and the Electronic unit is at 8 o’clock
http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/rabshaw/P4170003.jpg (http://s1069.photobucket.com/user/rabshaw/media/P4170003.jpg.html)
That being said I have now found that the rotor arm position “11 o’clock” is at the TDC firing for No 3. all of which not relevant as long as the spark is correct with the firing stroke it will run.
The old carburettor (which was the start of all the problems) cannot be swapped back as the retaining stud has pulled out preventing the carb from being bolted down it was the one under the bowl so you cannot drill it out for a bolt.
I was going to do a lot of work this weekend but have been unwell and unable to get out of bed cant even go down the pub I am that unwell! :puking: :puking:
RABS
MicksRedNova
21-04-2013, 09:39 PM
Wow that's a weird one. The shaft between the top and bottom of the dizzy must be 'out'. Not come accross that before, no wonder you were confused.
Make sure you get better before Stones, I am bringing some sunshine back from the Carnary Islands with me :cool1:
Mick
Mick
Just in case you cannot manage that Shirley and I are off to the sun the next weekend
I have one or two small jobs to complete on Sarah then it’s just a wash and brush-up. So best get on with it ….. as the sun is shining today
RABS
Peter
22-04-2013, 12:33 PM
If the #3 (left hand nearest clutch) is at 11 then the #1 (right hand, nearest clutch) must be 180 opposite at 5 which is correct. (1,4,3,2)-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Ukhozi/VWignitiondiagrame_zps29aac507.jpg
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