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bobbybrown
23-06-2013, 08:38 AM
Hi all,
The next phase of my plan is to look at heating and cooling of the interior of the nova.
Mainly, demisting the windscreen and having some sort of fan system to blow a steady cool breeze at the driver and passenger.

Has anyone set up any sort of system in their car?
Ideally I'm looking for one item that can provide both the hot and cold air which I will set up ducts and vents to direct the air flow around the car.

If I had any idea how to get an ac compressor modified to fit on the vw engine I would look more seriously at air conditioning, providing both what I'm looking for with the added functionality of being able to choose the desired temperature, fan speed etc. Would also have the downside of adding something relatively modern to the car although I can see positives and negatives for this approach.

Any and all ideas welcomed.

Obviously the ideal solution needs to be compact, I have a good amount of room under the front of the nova and a little inside for mounting any necessary components. There is also some space around the fuel tank behind the engine.

Lets see if we can come up with anything :)

islandman
23-06-2013, 12:44 PM
Car Builder Solutions have a compact heater / AC solution....but it isn't cheap!

http://www.cbsonline.co.uk/product/Univ ... Kit_AIRCON (http://www.cbsonline.co.uk/product/Universal_Air_Conditioning_%26_Heater_Kit_AIRCON)

bobbybrown
23-06-2013, 01:02 PM
Still requires the engine mounted compressor though, if I could figure that bit out I could arrange the in car parts and the pipe work without too much trouble :(

islandman
23-06-2013, 01:05 PM
I fitted my compressor with a custom made bracket and custom double pulley for my Alfa engine. When I was running air cooled I did look into it back then and most of the solutions I found for the beetle engine were from the USA beetle scene in California

bobbybrown
23-06-2013, 01:07 PM
May have to broaden my search.

If I can find a compressor that will bolt onto the air cooled lump I could make this work.

jasoncambs
23-06-2013, 01:59 PM
I will be fitting a eberspacher d1 to my nova , heat without starting the engine ,on remote control so it can warm up while im getting ready to go out :-)
Ive got a d4 in my van and its well toasty , james uses one in his transporter too ,
Way to go if you ask me :-)

Look on ebay or youtube and dont by the water heater one by mistake

bobbybrown
23-06-2013, 02:07 PM
I did look at them Jason, didn't fully understand them from what I found on ebay but could have been looking at the wrong thing.

They were also hundreds of pounds if I was looking at the right item.

jasoncambs
23-06-2013, 02:11 PM
Its summer , now is time to buy them , one went for 50 the other week ,

Look on youtube for a pictograph of how they work , then you will understand :-)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/eaglejason/4BE467E8-C18E-4C8C-8472-473C8945C512-5096-000003CC84F94CA2-1.jpg

jasoncambs
23-06-2013, 02:12 PM
Cheaper than heat exchangers me thinks ;-)

bobbybrown
23-06-2013, 02:13 PM
I was looking at the wrong thing.

Is it just for heat? Or cool aswell?

jasoncambs
23-06-2013, 02:26 PM
Depends , you can pay a bit more for a controller than will make it blow cool air too

Peter
23-06-2013, 04:03 PM
Read somewhere of a guy with a VW coupling a compressor directly to an electric motor in-line for A/C, guess it could also be done next to each other with a belt or chain drive too. Must be easier to locate and less drag on the engine apart from an increase in alternator loading. Ones basic home fridge works l like that doesn't it?

bobbybrown
23-06-2013, 04:28 PM
Basically. I need a liquid powered by a pump. If the liquid can pass through something cold then I'm half way there.

Peter
23-06-2013, 05:07 PM
For short trips (I can't spell journeys) :dunce: , you could use an Ice box, small pump pushing water through closed circuit copper coil running through a 20L cooler chest full of ice into a small matrix and a fan. Worst job, draining cold water from the chest on your return.

I think heat exchangers or copper coils on the J pipes into a std Mini heater unit via an electric water pump is still the best way for heat.

bobbybrown
23-06-2013, 05:18 PM
Yeah I think I can figure out heat pretty easily, problem is the cool air.

I have thought about what you say, an ice box with a fan however, I don't like the idea of a big box of water sloshing around behind me and it would only last for so long.

hmmm :coat:

Spacenut
23-06-2013, 05:52 PM
Eberspacher is a petrol powered burner with its own spark ignition and a temperature regulator. Very effective in cold weather (especially extremely cold weather), but does increase fuel consumption, and there are obvious safety precautions needed regarding the carbon monoxide exhaust. But from what I understand they are very reliable.

They aren't designed to provide cooling though.

Cockpit heating and cooling is a perrenial problem with Novas. There is a lot of solar heating from all of that glass (most if it pointing skywards) and obviously a lack of opening windows for ventilation. Heating and demisting are also problematic for air-cooled cars using the VW heat exchangers, with temperature regulation being particularly troublesome. Porsche had the same problem with the 911, which even in the 1980s drew criticism from testers.

One thing that has been noted with AC is that directing cold air at a misted screen can clear it a lot quicker than hot air can, so you could address the demisting and cooling issue in one go. Then there is just the heating for the occupants to worry about.

I am not certain there has ever been a completely successful solution applied to the Nova. After all, they were never intended for everyday use, and very few choose to use them as sole transport in all weathers.

Lauren

bobbybrown
24-06-2013, 09:10 AM
Does anyone know if its possible to get a modified aircooled crank pulley to take an extra belt? Or would this be something I would have to get made?

If I can source/have a crank pulley made, I could rig that up to an air conditioning compressor without too many problems, thinking a little deeper in to this now as I think it would be a useful addition to the car.

I do like a challenge!

MicksRedNova
24-06-2013, 09:56 AM
Does anyone know if its possible to get a modified aircooled crank pulley to take an extra belt? Or would this be something I would have to get made?

If I can source/have a crank pulley made, I could rig that up to an air conditioning compressor without too many problems, thinking a little deeper in to this now as I think it would be a useful addition to the car.

I do like a challenge!

I assume so. A quick Google for Beetle T1 aircon brought up these two possible solutions:

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTpaFef-nHX8hWquRgo5gXVZ4lWM-tSCQ1VmJM-Kd_YFvxhghGy

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfEwBd_k0DXSdjVvo1njVXT5TXMMFUt zyg4c-zJc0nEknEmxVskQ

Mick

bobbybrown
24-06-2013, 10:03 AM
That's just what I need!

Time to spend a couple of hours on google and see if I can track one down.

Peter
24-06-2013, 11:45 AM
I thought the CBS unit was the answer at 342 inc vat, until I totalled up the cost of their kit, (which is just a fan, matrix and a switch) plus a compressor, plus low profile end plate, plus tubing, plus brackets, plus condensing radiator w/fan, plus belt, plus pulley. best part of a grand anyone? :shock:

Peter
24-06-2013, 12:16 PM
Just found this article on Electric Vehicles air con, never thought about it but of course EVs need A/C too but no engine to drive it, so it has to electrically driven, like wot I said.

bobbybrown
24-06-2013, 01:26 PM
Yeah thought about this earlier.

If I can find a suitable motor to power the compressor, I could technically use any system and mount it as needed, using the motor to power the compressor instead of the engine.

Question is, what kind of motor would be needed for that?

Feels like progress is being made anyway.

Peter
24-06-2013, 01:51 PM
Been reading up on electric cars in general, Nissan leaf, Renault Zoe etc, NO THANKS!

Also been trying to find out what power would be needed to drive a compressor but I guess it will boil down to someone trying various motors to see. My brother might know, he used to make the Taurus tread mills back in the day and learnt a lot about motors and controllers. I'll drop him a message (In Alabama)

bobbybrown
24-06-2013, 02:04 PM
Would be interested to find out what he thinks.

Thanks Peter.

MicksRedNova
24-06-2013, 02:28 PM
Dan
Take a look at this Wiki article. It seems that most domestic aircons use DC electric driven compressors because it's more efficient that the stop/start method of temperature control:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAir_con ditioner_inverter&ei=t1XIUaSgK8yp0AWzwoCICw&usg=AFQjCNHMo3UVjmcPLYKoUJCNDXMPKa5-tw&bvm=bv.48293060,d.d2k

Don't know what DC voltage they run off, but the idea of varying the speed of the motor driving the compressor to adjust the cooling output is interesting.

Mick

bobbybrown
24-06-2013, 02:33 PM
Certainly is.
If I could rig up some sort of motor connected to the compressor either directly or by a belt, that could be the main hurdle of this idea overcome.

Will have a look around tonight after work, difficult to read much while I'm here as I keep getting disturbed.

bushboy
24-06-2013, 03:10 PM
Dan
Take a look at this Wiki article. It seems that most domestic aircons use DC electric driven compressors because it's more efficient that the stop/start method of temperature control:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAir_con ditioner_inverter&ei=t1XIUaSgK8yp0AWzwoCICw&usg=AFQjCNHMo3UVjmcPLYKoUJCNDXMPKa5-tw&bvm=bv.48293060,d.d2k

Don't know what DC voltage they run off, but the idea of varying the speed of the motor driving the compressor to adjust the cooling output is interesting.

Mick


Hate to rain on your info but I read it as converting AC in to DC to convert it back to AC so that the frequency can be controlled. The compressor is still driven by an AC motor.

Bushboy

bobbybrown
24-06-2013, 04:13 PM
Hmm. Must be a motor out there capable of running a compressor either belt mounted or direct to the pulley.

I see some potential with this idea just needs some researching and need to speak to someone who knows a lot more about electric motors than I do.

bobbybrown
24-06-2013, 06:06 PM
Right, after pondering this all day, any air conditioning is going to suck what little power the vw air cooled engkne has already so other ideas are needed.

Something to heat but also something to cool that isn't just going to blow hot air around inside the car during warm weather.

MicksRedNova
24-06-2013, 06:46 PM
Dan
Take a look at this Wiki article. It seems that most domestic aircons use DC electric driven compressors because it's more efficient that the stop/start method of temperature control:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAir_con ditioner_inverter&ei=t1XIUaSgK8yp0AWzwoCICw&usg=AFQjCNHMo3UVjmcPLYKoUJCNDXMPKa5-tw&bvm=bv.48293060,d.d2k

Don't know what DC voltage they run off, but the idea of varying the speed of the motor driving the compressor to adjust the cooling output is interesting.

Mick


Hate to rain on your info but I read it as converting AC in to DC to convert it back to AC so that the frequency can be controlled. The compressor is still driven by an AC motor.

Bushboy

Not quite. It uses AC cos that's what comes from the mains, but then uses Pulse Width Modulation of DC to control the motor speed.
It a bit like switching on/off quickly - the average DC voltage is less than maximum and the more 'off' the circuit is compared to 'on' reduces the average voltage. This is the principle used by modern motor speed controls.
Mick

Nic
24-06-2013, 06:58 PM
Here's a thought... how many HPs does an AC compressor rob the engine of? For sake of argument, lets say 5hp. Find a 5hp electric motor?
of course I could be over simplifying the theory. :oops2:

Alzax3
24-06-2013, 07:18 PM
Buuuuutttt you're still going to have to drive your 5HP electric motor, which means having an alternator capable of doing that, and it will draw all that power off the engine (as it has to come from somewhere) so you might as well have taken the drive straight from the belt pulley in the first place and avoided all the losses.

As to whether all the effort is worth it - considering the three hot days that usually constitute a UK summer, I think a decent sunroof and opening/removable windows would probably be more use!

bobbybrown
24-06-2013, 08:47 PM
The sunroof opens but only a little, not much air coming in through there.
The side windows would take a lot of work to get them opening in a secure way for what I feel is not much benefit. There is only so much air that can flow through an open side window.

There is a solar powered fan in the canopy but as yet it doesn't work, need to remove it and see if I can get it working. Never know that may provide all the cooling I need but still looking for a more permanent approach.

If the engine was more powerful I would have no issue fabricating a/c, maybe further down the line if I change the engine it can be a project for then. If I happen to fit an engine that has a/c already then why not keep it :)

For now some sort of fan maybe, if I could rig up a water cooled idea so the air was cool even on hot days it would be good, but I don't fancy water sloshing around everywhere so it's pros and cons as always.

Spacenut
24-06-2013, 09:17 PM
Yes, I was thinking the same thing - about 5 bhp seems typical for an AC compressor. I think a starter motor drawing 30A is producing less than 1 bhp (0.8 bhp springs to mind), and that is only designed for intermittent use before overheating.

These electric car/hybrid AC compressors have very large battery packs that are recharged by regenerative braking and large motor/alternators, so there is plenty of power in reserve for climate control. I also believe they run at 220V through an AC inverter, not the easiest thing to set up in a car...

Not saying it can't be done, but it will be a challenge!

I personally still like the idea of Ranque-Hilsch vortex tubes, which run on compressed air - the tube design sets up vorteces that separate into cooled air at one end and heated air at the other. You just connect up the end that is producing the most appropriate output to a heat exchanger in the cockpit and presto! Heating or cooling, as required.

It seems I am not alone in this - a company in Nizhni Novgorod (home of Caspian Sea Monster, and other amazing ground effect vehicles) were granted a patent application for a vehicle based system last year. Text below...

"In the proposed air conditioners, the cooling agent (freon or other agent) is replaced by a cold air stream from a vortex tube (Ranque-Hilsch effect), which passes through the air heat exchanger (radiator) and cools it. The air conditioner comprises a vortex tube as a source of cold, a compressor for supplying compressed air, a radiator as a heat exchanger and a system for mixing the streams in a closed cycle. The fan of the forced circulation system takes off the air from the vehicle interior and returns the air that passed through the cooling radiator (air conditioning effect). At the same time, a stream of heat is produced in the vortex tube; it can be used for heating in cold weather. The dimensions and the capacity of the vortex tubes (in terms of cold stream) are selected depending on the vehicle type and air conditioning requirements. The optimal temperature of the interior is kept within 18-22 C, the outside air temperature being in the range of -20 to +40C. The equipment can be used without additional modification in cars, trucks, buses, road construction and agricultural equipment, in military equipment (tanks, armored infantry carriers, etc.), as well as in railroad transport.
The proposed air conditioner is close to conventional freon systems in terms of operation efficiency, but it has a number of important advantages:
a) lower cost compared to the conventional equipment due to:
* absence of valves, faucets and pressure-tight elements;
* absence of soldered or welded joints;
* replacement of metal couplings by plastic or rubber ones;
b) simple and convenient operation:
* no need to fill and add the cooling agent;
* easy mounting/dismounting of the air conditioner or its separate units;
* it is possible to use (retrofit) the proposed air conditioner in a standard vehicle air circulating system;
c) when used in a vehicle, the proposed air conditioners have:
* a high vibration and shock resistance;
* ability to work efficiently in case of air-tightness faults.
d) environmental safety (no environmentally hazardous cooling agents)
e) energy saving due to efficient use of the compressor.

Innovative Aspects:
* A conceptually new method of artificial cold production for air conditioning of motor vehicles without freon.
* The proposed air conditioner uses a closed cycle which does not require additional atmospheric air
The proposed air conditioners:
* are general purpose units that can be used in the majority of vehicle types;
* have low production cost;
* do not have to be filled with costly cooling agents (Freon or its analogues);
* are vibration and shock resistant in operation;
* can work in the conditions of partial air-tightness break of the system;
* have low operation costs."

I did wonder whether the exhaust gas flow could be used as the compressed air source, but I think an engine-driven compressor (like a normal workshop compressor, I've seen a similar system used on fintail Mercedes) is probably more appropriate.

Out-of-the-box thinking, or just plain out-of-their-minds, you decide :D

Lauren

Peter
24-06-2013, 09:18 PM
For now some sort of fan maybe, if I could rig up a water cooled idea so the air was cool even on hot days it would be good, but I don't fancy water sloshing around everywhere so it's pros and cons as always.

Use cheap reusable gel packs, not ice or water, half a dozen straight out the freezer wrapped around the copper coil in a container should give about two hours of cooling.

jasoncambs
24-06-2013, 09:20 PM
Turn the sunroof round so it catches air :-)

Peter
24-06-2013, 09:37 PM
Tried that on a Marcos mantis, blew the back window out on the M5 and had to make a new one. :(
Meanwhile. back to cooling,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Ukhozi/cooler_zps0d9be0a9.jpg
As you are only using it a few days for longer runs it would do, I would need something far more substantial so looking at a 5hp induction motor direct drive onto a std Compressor and A/C system from a Corsa C. I would nick the wife's but I think she would mind a bit. :whip:

Peter
24-06-2013, 10:13 PM
Also thinking golf buggy motor, they run all day off of a 12v battery with two fat golfers on, I'm sure they could run a compressor without draining the cars' battery or overloading the alternator.
like this one, it's off a trolley but same thing. could be close coupled in line.
http://tinyurl.com/qeteyhr

NovaF4
24-06-2013, 10:23 PM
1. Wear less clothes whilst driving in hot weather
2. Do without air con (most sports cars in the 70's and 80's didn't have air con anyway and I doubt owners of these cars would change to air con now so why on a Nova? Plus Nova's aren't renounced for being powerful so why take away valuable horses?);
3. Open the sunroof,
4. Buy a matrix and a twin fan (I used Alfa 33 and Ford Sierra respectively) and make an ally box to house the matrix, allow fitment of the fan and have exit holes for air tubes into dash vents, plumb the matrix in with copper and rubber pipes to the engines water system, including a water shut-off valve controllable from a dashboard switch,
5. Don't open the valve during hot weather
6. Turn on the fans for fresh outside air rushing into the cabin and escaping out of the sunroof gap.

If it starts raining then open the valve to demist the screen and keep the sunroof open. Close the valve when it stops raining.

It works. I've done it. (Only now I'm improving on the same idea!)

G

MicksRedNova
24-06-2013, 11:24 PM
Dan
I don't think any over the Nova's I've seen in UK have air-con. I have never needed it because:
1. I have a sunroof that sucks enough air through the car when its open.
2. I have a 2 speed Fiat-X19 blower fan that sucks air from behind the rear bulkhead and blows it through trunking to footwells, centre console and screen.
3. If all that fails cos I'm going slowly on a hot day (not often) I just pop the roof half an inch!

I have however frozen every time I drive to Detling at Easter - so a heater is more use.

If you can't live without one try these guys (naming coincidence?): http://www.novakool.com/products/conversion_units.htm

They make 12v/24v units for boats, RVs, Trucks etc. The spec sheet shows them drawing between 15 and 30 amps though, so get a big battery.

Mick

bobbybrown
25-06-2013, 06:40 AM
Peter I like the golf buggy idea.

Mick, part of the reason of wanting to do it is that is hasn't been done, however, I am beginning to think the idea would be better shelved incase I decide to change the engine in the future which could make the whole process much easier.

edmorton
25-06-2013, 07:18 AM
Lauren, do you have a diagram of the Vortex system..?

Unlike everything else, aircon should be relatively easy with the Zetec. Compressor and radiator out of a Focus, Car Builder Solutions for everything else.

Probably not a priority at the minute though!

One point I picked up from the Marcos forum re cooling and ventilation (these cars are a bit on the snug side as well). It's easy to focus on ways of getting fresh air into the cabin but it's just as important to provide a route out for the old stuff. A few of the cars used 12V "bilge blower" (this term works on ebay) fans, which worked pretty well.

Ed.

bushboy
25-06-2013, 10:14 AM
Dan,
This picture still ammuses me
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/bushboy554/airconamericanstyle.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/bushboy554/media/airconamericanstyle.jpg.html)

but may not be that stupid. Run the compressor from an auxillary small 5 hp petrol engine. You get to keep your 5hp for the back wheels, just carry a weight penalty.

Alternatively,

Fit one of these
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/bushboy554/engine1.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/bushboy554/media/engine1.jpg.html)

170hp std so loosing 5 to run the standard equipment compressor is no great loss, cheap as chips and they fit, ask me how.
Mine came with air con but I wont fit it. I have "T" roof panels that provide all the ventilation required so far.

Also has powersteering pump so you could have powersteering as well!!!
bushboy

bobbybrown
25-06-2013, 10:34 AM
Power steering is another thing on the to do list :rofl:

I don't think ill have too many issues with fitting an engine in to the nova, I have more access to put an engine in than most :)

Would be a future plan though, happy with the little air cooled for the time being.

Peter
25-06-2013, 12:04 PM
Power steering is easy, Opel Corsa electric column.
Still like to see the Vortex drawing.
Fan like this?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/Ukhozi/download%20safe/underbonnet_zps95262a1d.jpg
Blows though a box between boot and bulkhead and into a CBS outlet panel to two 2 1/2" ducts to the dash vents and two 1 1/2" to cabin.

bobbybrown
25-06-2013, 12:09 PM
That would probably do what I need for cooling for the time being Peter.

jimcub
25-06-2013, 04:08 PM
I still have my corsa column and rack, with a resistance dial so i can alter it, no time or agility to fit so far

Spacenut
25-06-2013, 05:28 PM
Lauren, do you have a diagram of the Vortex system..?

Hi Ed - I got the basics off Wikipedia, here is the link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_tube

They are used extensively in industrial cooling systems, where there is a ready source of compressed air. They have also been used for refridgeration in the past, but there is a noise penalty which limits their use in a domestic environment. But in a car with a noisy exhaust, I can't see it being a problem :D

Lauren

Peter
25-06-2013, 10:52 PM
Problem is, you need a constant supply of air at about 100psi or approx. 7 bar, my small compressor could just about manage that for a short time before dropping to 6 bar from 8 bar and firing up again, and again, and again.

Spacenut
26-06-2013, 05:53 PM
I'm sure you could still achieve acceptable cooling/heating with lower pressure, there is no cliff edge below which the effect ceases to work. The differential cooling effect just reduces from 26 to... less that 26 :confused1:

Swamp coolers (which use evaporation cooling) are a lot less efficient than a closed-cycle AC, but it doesn't stop people benefiting from the effect in domestic fan coolers, boats and RVs...

I was thinking, one way of generating a lot of air under pressure might be to use a turbocharger - should be good for a couple of bar, depending on the size of the turbo and the exhaust gas volume...

Lauren

islandman
11-01-2017, 12:38 AM
A neat little heat and AC package one of the guys on the Sterling site found in a Mercedes would be a good size for our cars

http://www.sterlingkitcars.com/members_n_forums/blowers-air-conditioning/1720-ac-heater-will-fit.html

bushboy
11-01-2017, 11:07 PM
What a neat compact unit. Got me thinking.

Bushboy