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Peter
21-06-2014, 08:06 AM
Would it worth making a pair of moulds and pulling some off to sell?
I must say that given the $8000 needed I would buy one in a flash I love the Nova/SS cars and this is a nice update, kinda MkV Nova, Shame Dave in the States hasn't done the same with the Stirling.

I meant the car+ shipping :sorry:

Spacenut
21-06-2014, 06:54 PM
I love the Nova/SS cars and this is a nice update, kinda MkV Nova, Shame Dave in the States hasn't done the same with the Stirling.

I disagree - I for one am very pleased to see the original Mk1 Nova still in production; old designs dragged into the modern era with skirts and spoilers and all manner of tat just look sad. Better it stay as it was - ahead of the game - instead of being dragged along with all the other supercar pretenders.

Lauren

Alzax3
21-06-2014, 07:24 PM
Ditto what she said!

Peter
21-06-2014, 08:06 PM
So we all should drive model Ts.
The MkI is still in production? Define, "production"

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Spacenut
21-06-2014, 08:21 PM
So we all should drive model Ts

That's not what I meant - I would like to have the option of driving a Model T, if I wanted to. I regard my Nova as a classic car, not a modern - I think it looks better as a futuristic car from the past, and don't see the point of dressing it up.

Not to have a choice is to follow a path toward bland uniformity. I don't think any of us want that!

Lauren

Gmacz
21-06-2014, 08:58 PM
The car in question is a ferrari clone with a canopy, it is not a nova.
It looks like it was modified to fit the canopy on an existing model.
It is a good looking car and I can see why Peter likes it but it is a different animal.
The F40 nova is a modified nova and nicely done, I would rather have the F40 nova than this car.
It is good to see we all have different views on this car and my No1 choice is the original nova.
Is this car just a mock-up or is it complete and running.
:offtopic:If this is a problem move it to another place and have a proper debate.:argue:

Peter
22-06-2014, 09:25 AM
That's not what I meant - I would like to have the option of driving a Model T, if I wanted to. I regard my Nova as a classic car, not a modern - I think it looks better as a futuristic car from the past, and don't see the point of dressing it up.

Not to have a choice is to follow a path toward bland uniformity. I don't think any of us want that!

Lauren

I agree, unfortunately the march to bland uniformity is upon us already with not much else on the kit market apart from snakes and 7s, (35K Ultimas etc and 'track day only' cars aside) I HATE the Eurobox designs where they all look the same and I HATE my A170 with a vengeance but it is very versatile and useful, if not reliable which is why I drive a 1987 BMW E30, from an era where they all looked the same also, (BMW3, Mercedes 190, Renault 21, VW Jetta, Volvo 244, etc, all same square bonnet and boot with a box in the middle), cars that are significantly different didn't sell in any significant numbers and still don't.

The Nova and all it derivatives evolved over the years they were in production and as a result of subsequent owners putting their individual stamp on them, (I didn't know there was any still production, much less ongoing). The Noreca is what the Nova WOULD look like had production continued. As Tim Naylor found out the hard and expensive way, no one wants to BUY the old shape or even a updated version, in fact I think Noreca are finding it hard to sell the new shape, What I am saying is, if you want to sell a kit today what people want is today's shape at an affordable price and the Noreca is, and yes, that is a VW based demo car.

Yes, our cars should be regarded as classics and restored in that light, at least keeping the external look very close to the original but to sell a car today it just doesn't work, it needs to follow current trends to some extent whist keeping the elements that made it popular in the first place, as with the Mini, Fiat 500, Jaguar, etc, nothing like the originals but you can see where they came from. Retaining the lifting canopy is great but it will always be regarded as an altered Nova no matter how smooth and sexy the lines are and one reason Tim was not going to call the new MR2 based car an "Eagle SS MkIV" but the "TEAC SSR", I guess the Cimbria and SS got much the same reaction from the Nova/Stirling owners when the gull wing doors arrived and why the Noreca is not called a Nova MkV.

If I went into production tomorrow offering the last 1998 SS design, even on a new composite chassis I would be lucky to get any orders. If the Nova/SS was on sale today it would have to have a custom chassis, mid engine etc and a price tag in the 6K bracket, (Locostafields apart) you will find this about average these days, the Noreca is $6200, about 3,600, plus donor parts, wheels & tyres, seats, etc., it couldn't be made any cheaper and still be financially viable, :nonono: I know as Tim did all the sums in 2006 and he had the moulds already. In 1981 when Tim Dutton and Allen Breeze brought the Cimbria to the UK as the Eagle SS they reckoned a SS could be made and on the road for under 3K but that was in '81, by 1995 when he delivered my SS body, (it wasn't a complete kit), Reg Budd said to me it would be 5K and by the time of my 2002 rebuild I found it hard to do under 8K and I am talking about a proper job with new kit, reconditioned running gear and engine and new interior, etc not a resurrected scrapyard 'bitsa', I think mine falls between the two these days :whistling:
We all have our our own take on the cars and that's why no two are the same and they all have our individual stamp on them and long may they do so.:thumbup: and unless there is a new affordable, radical design loosely based on the old cars, it is an era long past.

Alzax3
22-06-2014, 05:42 PM
If you remember the way the majority of Duttons were finished - matt brushed paint and seriously dodgy builds - they were probably right with their build estimates for the original Eagle. (The factory built ones were fairly basic though probably safer!)

If someone with very deep pockets and the right vision took on the Nova or for that matter the Eagle and gave it the modern work over without ruining the general styling, then it might just manage a niche market along with the Marcos/Ultima etc assuming that the rapidly reducing number of people with the build skills discovered it.

I don't believe an Ultima has any less driving position/visibility/practicality problems, it just has a massive engine and proven track record - plus everyone knows you have to be able to sink a fortune into owning/building one, so it has 'flash git' value for those with small bits. That could be done with the Nova but I doubt it ever will.....

bobbybrown
22-06-2014, 07:28 PM
To clear any confusion, I have moved these posts to a new thread to keep David's build thread on track.

Spacenut
22-06-2014, 07:35 PM
Thanks Dan - I was holding off replying to Peter's latest post in Dave's thread as we are well off-topic!

Lauren

bobbybrown
22-06-2014, 08:03 PM
Yeah I left it a while incase it veered back on course, didn't look likely so splitting the posts to a new thread seems the best resolution.

Dave's thread stays on track and the discussion can continue.

Peter
22-06-2014, 08:59 PM
Sorry :-(

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Spacenut
22-06-2014, 09:08 PM
Yes, so back on track with this thread, styling. My problem is that most attempts at re-styling the Nova attempt to make it into something it is not - a modern sports car. This usually involves adding deep side skirts to give it a slab-sided look, wings on the back for that aero vibe, matching spoilers and/or splitters round the front and something, usually very horrible, to try and disguise the engine at the back (not much you can do about the sound though).

Why this looks wrong on a Nova is the unbalanced proportions of the narrow glasshouse, with the strongly tapered side glass and narrow "hourglass" waistline as viewed from above. You would be better off starting from scratch; a wider cockpit, more upright glass, wider windscreen with less taper etc. If someone pulled their finger out and produced a Gallardo replica (I know, copyright) you would have everything you needed - except of course a suitable chassis.

The VW floorpan really is an antique - approaching its 75th birthday, it is completely unsuitable as the underpinnings for any car with sporting pretentions. The track is narrow, necessitating wheels with large positive offset (which is also contrary to the "modern" look), mis-matched suspension with soft springs, very poor geometry front and rear, and vague steering, also with poor geometry. With the ready availability of more up-to-date mid-engine donors such as the MR2 and MGF, surely it would be better to start again?

My point is, the Nova has proportions that were in tune with the styling trends of the late 60's, and I would personally prefer to see it remain that way. After all, nobody puts a GFX aero kit on a Mk2 Jag, changes the engine because they are embarrassed by the noise, slaps on 19" wheels with 35% profile tyres (but retains the quarter-elliptic leaf spring suspension) and then proudly claims their car is up-to-date. It so isn't!

We know what the Nova would have become had it remained in production - Richard Oakes had a new design on the table in 1975. The new car would have had conventional doors, less curvature, more upright side glass (that rolled down), a new windscreen, sharper lines (similar to the Maserati Khamsin). More "up-to-date" in fact. No part of the original Nova would have been retained by the new model - it was to have been all new.

SImilarly, a new Nova should not try and use the original body moulds, or windscreen shape, as this will immediately put the car back in the "modified 70's kit car" category. Keep the spirit of the original, without the constraints imposed by the original parts.

And leave the original shape alone!

Lauren

Peter
23-06-2014, 10:44 AM
But would the 1975 design still have been a "Nova", I think it would have been so far removed from the original as to be a car model in it's own right. The thing about 'evolving' a car is that it stays in it's basic form with changes to style and trim until it reaches 'explosion point' and then we get the 'new' mini which is actually larger than the old Maxi and a Fiat 500 into which the original would fit and the new Polo which is bigger than the MkII Golf. If you look at most of the long standing cars, (Golf, Fiesta, Golf, Astra, etc) with the possible exception of the worlds most popular car, the Corsa, which remains 80% the same, they have all outgrown their originals.

A redesigned Nova/Eagle would have to change so much as to very different to the original and IMHO would loose a lot of what we love in the 'droop snoop' family. So we would be left with the 'original' which means reformed, rebuilt and restored cars from the rapidly dwindling stock and a completely new car, would the new car be viable? I can say that from 2 years of market research in 2005/6, no, it wouldn't, Tim Naylor ploughed thousands into the TEAC SSR project (SS MkIV) and a bit of expense and a lot of time by myself, only to be confronted by those who didn't want major changes and those who wanted more change along the line Lauren mentioned, NONE of whom wanted to put their money where their mouths were.

A 'new' car would need to be current, easy to build, SVA compliant of course, reasonably practicable for every day driving, easily available, inexpensive donor parts preferably from a single car like a MR2 or MGF/Lotus, and above all, affordable, the cost of production cars has fallen and one can buy a very nice (Eurobox) car for less than a kit now. Having said that the sales of kit cars is dropping like a stone as regulations and lack of disposable income take their toll, so we are left with the cheap, easy Locostfields and the 30K plus snakes and Ultimas and the fact most 'kit car' magazines seen to cater for little else these days with just the occasional crumb thrown in our direction proves this.

The 2006 'Stoneleigh' car was a MR2 mock up on a tacked together frame, (not a chassis at all) and some ideas 'plonked' on to get reactions. The SSR was to have been most of this, (but not all) MR2 based with MGF option, wider at the top, drop windows and in the floor for 'standard' seats, gull-wing doors as before, (with my double roof mounted strut system with actuator option), slightly rounder lines but retaining the basic form, No bigger splitter than current and no rear wing or big sills, just a 'Nova' style scoop. NOT A SAUSAGE! :cursing:

Not the only car since then to have disapeared from sight, many projects never see the light of day and just fade away, some thankfully but a few do merit a chance.

Spacenut
24-06-2014, 06:11 PM
Richard Oakes has always maintained that the opening canopy on the Nova was a bad idea. Intended to make construction of the kit easier (in fact the canopy was fitted from the factory initially), the view once production had started was that this form of entry and exit was actually putting off potential customers, not pulling them in. To Richard, the opening canopy became an embarrassment, so I have no doubt that he would have been happy to transfer the original name to the new car, one that he could feel proud of.

I know this sounds absurd today, where the principal appeal of the Nova is its unique form of egress and exit, but you have to remember that back in the early 70's the Ferrari Daytona was favoured over the Lamborghini Countach for the same reason - people were thinking about how practical a Supercar should be, and voting with their feet accordingly!

Lauren

Peter
25-06-2014, 09:44 AM
Hmm, I didn't know Richard was so unhappy with the canopy idea, I would have been very pleased with it but it isn't everyone's cup of coffee and I guess that is the reason for the Cimbria> Eagle gull wings, not that they sold any more. I know there is a derivative that has conventional doors, can't remember what it's called and can't be assed to find out.

Redesigning a current car or designing a new modern replacement would be academic as no one would buy it anyway and one reason there are so many 7 and Cobra copies as most of the work has already been done.
Although the UK is the home of kit cars, fleet and company fleets (25% of registrations) are driving the price down so there are too many conventional cars for sale that make better sense economically and are practical, coupled with the rapidly rising cost of owning a 'fun car' and the reducing number of people who want to get their hands dirty even IF they could do it, it is unfortunately a (rapidly?) dying market kept alive by we enthusiasts and those with deep pockets, (rarely the same person).

Spacenut
25-06-2014, 06:03 PM
I have to agree, any new kit will receive a cool reception from the buying public. Kit car buyers rarely show any appreciation of styling - they are motivated by two things: outright performance, or the promise of it (Ultima, Cobra, GT40) and engineering (Exoskeletons, 7evens, Rickman Ranger etc.)

Unfortunately, the Nova appeals to neither segment of the market - and even if it did, it is too easily dismissed as just a recycled Beetle, an exotically-styled body kit, all show and no substance...

But there will always be a hardcore of enthusiasts who, against all the odds continue to support this classic slice of fibreglass confectionary :group:

Lauren

Peter
25-06-2014, 06:09 PM
You don't HAVE to agree, but I love it when you do,:blushing:

Gmacz
25-06-2014, 08:30 PM
Although the UK is the home of kit cars, fleet and company fleets (25% of registrations) are driving the price down so there are too many conventional cars for sale that make better sense economically and are practical, coupled with the rapidly rising cost of owning a 'fun car' and the reducing number of people who want to get their hands dirty even IF they could do it, it is unfortunately a (rapidly?) dying market kept alive by we enthusiasts and those with deep pockets, (rarely the same person).

Cheap insurance, free road tax if you get the right one, parts all from breakers or cheap chinese parts all make it a cheap hobby.It can be cheap if you want or you can spend spend spend.
Total cost of mine on the road and running well including car, delivery, insurance, mot, all parts is under 2500.
Car is never finished and I have just over 100 left for some add ons before going over the 2.5k mark.
Or I might just blow it on loads of petrol.

Spacenut
25-06-2014, 09:43 PM
You have answered the question - the most affordable way of owning a kit car is to buy second-hand. Would you fork out 10k for a new, properly engineered Nova kit? No? I didn't think so. Exit, stage left, the kit car industry... :coat:

Lauren