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Spacenut
06-07-2015, 08:52 PM
There is so little room behind the engine for a radiator, surely it makes more sense to fit a brace of interconnected radiators in front of the rear wheel arches? I know a rear radiator can be made to work with the Alfa boxer engine, but you are operating right on the ragged edge in terms of engine cooling. Also, side mounted radiators helps to move some of the mass within the wheelbase...

Lauren

Buffy
06-07-2015, 09:34 PM
There is so little room behind the engine for a radiator, surely it makes more sense to fit a brace of interconnected radiators in front of the rear wheel arches? I know a rear radiator can be made to work with the Alfa boxer engine, but you are operating right on the ragged edge in terms of engine cooling. Also, side mounted radiators helps to move some of the mass within the wheelbase...

Lauren

Hi Lauren. For a while it was going to be a front mounted radiator as I could not get the pulley nut off after bending a few of my T bars, but a friend with a compressor and an air gun soon got it undone.

I am right at the point of making the decision. Front, back or sides. Now this is a topic which has been covered many times on this forum and will probably continue. For me, rear fitting seems neat and tidy, front mounting loses space, side mounting seems untidy ( but I have seen no photos yet of this ).
Do you think the 16v runs hotter than the 8v ?

I am obviously guided by those with the Alfa engine already but how have the Subaru runners faired with rad position?

steve
06-07-2015, 10:53 PM
Chassis looking very nice man, good work. :cool1:

Peter
06-07-2015, 10:58 PM
I'm with Lauren on this, a pair of (mini?) Rads as per F1 would be best as although a front rad would be better it would also be a pig to install. Side rad's are the best compromise. Rear rad would not be anywhere good enough.

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Peter
06-07-2015, 10:59 PM
Had several Skodas with rear engine and front rads and blown head gaskets

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steve
07-07-2015, 12:27 AM
If you are concerned about air flow for a mid or rear mounted set-up, Sterling Sports sell scoops:

http://www.shop.sterlingsportscars.com/Side-RX-air-intake-scoops-fiberglass-FG-326.htm

islandman
07-07-2015, 12:56 AM
I did see some pictures of really nice installs with two small radiators mounted at 45 degrees to the horizontal plane underneath each of the front lights leaving the engine bay untouched. I think they were on Eureka's (I'm sure Cyco will have them). I would be very tempted to follow that route again as they get all the airflow from the front nose scoops, plus the extra water volume from the pipes front to back helps too.


take a look at this before you decide. I'm back in Singapore on Friday and will try to find the photos then.

CyCo
07-07-2015, 02:30 PM
I did see some pictures of really nice installs with two small radiators mounted at 45 degrees to the horizontal plane underneath each of the front lights leaving the engine bay untouched. I think they were on Eureka's (I'm sure Cyco will have them). I would be very tempted to follow that route again as they get all the airflow from the front nose scoops, plus the extra water volume from the pipes front to back helps too.


take a look at this before you decide. I'm back in Singapore on Friday and will try to find the photos then.

Indeed I do. Just have to find them. Think Porsche. Basically most modern Porkas have twin radiators up front under their headlights. This involves creating a subframe upfront, but also has the added advantage of being used to help stop the nose from drooping.

As far as I know, it's only been done on one, maybe two Eurekas Certainly been done with one, and that was running an EJ20 (can't remember if it had a turbo or not). And from what I heard, the engine didn't overheat.

This arrangement came from a long discussion on the way back from one of our Meets (the stereo in my car decided to go on the fritz), about moving the radiator from under the bonnet to twin radiators up front, and the repairing of the under bonnet area (a hack job for the current radiator, if there ever was a hack job, that was it!!). Then it was talking about cutting out the section needed from a carcass we know about (and talked to the owner, who approved of the idea), but since we now have the molds, we'll pull a partial mold and use that. When, who knows!! lol

If I find the photos, I'll post them up.

Buffy
07-07-2015, 05:39 PM
Thanks for the suggestions. I will be very interested in seeing the pictures.

My first reaction ref radiators under arches was no. The reason is that I just think of stones bouncing about and hitting the radiators. The reason for this thinking is that I have a gravel driveway and live along a rural lane !! I just have a vision of a stone going through the rad.

This is the back panel from my car. You can see what someone has done before in that they have glassed in 2 brackets to support the base of the rad that was originally there. My original intention was to create an Islandman frame for the base, then cut away a fair part of the number plate recess to give me more space, and also change the rear lights for more flush mounting ones, again giving me more space. I was looking at the reverse cavalier rear lights as used by Sam on the Mk4 which this is.

1323

I am always grateful though for suggestions and views

Mark

Gmacz
07-07-2015, 06:22 PM
I have two rads on mine, are you putting it in front of the front of the engine or in the rear of the engine. another idea is at the side of one of the banks of cylinders.
A recently sold lancia engined nova had it at the left hand side and no overheating issues with that one.
I can hold my engine at 60 degrees on the hottest days (scotland) and that is with both radiator fans running, the fan frame also stops gravel etc getting at the radiators.
My fans are manually operated and I switch them on when needed, the 60 degrees was just to see how they coped in hot weather.
If you want unassisted cooling then it needs to be at the front, fan assisted cooling can be almost anywhere. The lower holes on the nova body rear have no ram air effect even with the radiator surrounded with plates to direct all air into the radiator.
That is what I have found with my car.

Buffy
09-07-2015, 11:12 PM
what about a rear mounted rad ala porsche, mounted on hydraulics or electric lift to to raise above back end at certain temperature to cool it down rather like james bond db5 rear bullet screen

Well that would be different !!!!!!!!

I think, through the forum advice panel, that I will be going for front mounted under the headlight bases. Will go for aluminium mini rads suspended with fans underneath. The issues is then, which way to route the piping, up the middle of the car or down the sides...( may need to open a seperate thread for this discussion).

My only query would be, if you lay a mini rad on its side would a convential radiator cap be ok left in situ, or do you have to modify the rad and totally remove the cap ( blank this area off)?

Another factor was, when looking at the back end of a car with Cavalier lights, I prefer what I have already..

islandman
10-07-2015, 02:36 AM
. I'm back in Singapore later tonight and will dig out those photos if I can find them.

I'm gutted I have looked through my photos and cannot find them, I had thought I had saved them for my own reference as the installation was really rather neat.

islandman
10-07-2015, 02:49 AM
Just about to finish my night shift and found Fiat Cinquecento radiators as a possibility. Sealed units, one underneath each headlight area. Small , light and compact.


I think the Cinquecento has plastic ends, which is not desirable if you need to alter the inlet / outlet pipes.

Personally I would have custom radiators made to suit your specification, that way you can go for something like a 2 or 3 core aluminium radiator and specify the inlet and outlet pipe position and angle to make pipework easier (which may be different on each side). There are many companies around doing this type of work now and they are not all necessarily expensive.

If using an existing radiator simply use a non-pressure relief radiator blanking cap, Get July's 2015 edition of "complete kit car" as there is a great write-up on this whole subject by Ed Morton covering the whole subject.

Buffy
10-07-2015, 04:14 AM
I think the Cinquecento has plastic ends, which is not desirable if you need to alter the inlet / outlet pipes.

It is also too long after measuring yesterday


If using an existing radiator simply use a non-pressure relief radiator blanking cap, Get July's 2015 edition of "complete kit car" as there is a great write-up on this whole subject by Ed Morton covering the whole subject.

Now that is a mag I will be getting, thanks for the tip.....

islandman
10-07-2015, 01:43 PM
Bingo! I found it, they were on Radeks blog.

Read the Radiator section of his blog, a detailed step by step guide :banana:

http://radekseureka.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/cooling.html?view=magazine

Using the modified Mini copper radiators provides quite a nice tidy install

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww131/islandmanhere/Old%20Mini%20Cooper%20Radiator%20-%20both%20sides_zpsvj4hr6ih.jpg (http://s713.photobucket.com/user/islandmanhere/media/Old%20Mini%20Cooper%20Radiator%20-%20both%20sides_zpsvj4hr6ih.jpg.html)

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww131/islandmanhere/Old%20Mini%20Cooper%20Radiator%20-%20bracket_zpssqcupfht.jpg (http://s713.photobucket.com/user/islandmanhere/media/Old%20Mini%20Cooper%20Radiator%20-%20bracket_zpssqcupfht.jpg.html)

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww131/islandmanhere/Old%20Mini%20Cooper%20Radiator%20-%20drivers%20side_zpsygzo5vng.jpg (http://s713.photobucket.com/user/islandmanhere/media/Old%20Mini%20Cooper%20Radiator%20-%20drivers%20side_zpsygzo5vng.jpg.html)

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww131/islandmanhere/Old%20Mini%20Cooper%20Radiator%20-%20passenger%20side_zpsbuoiwjjy.jpg (http://s713.photobucket.com/user/islandmanhere/media/Old%20Mini%20Cooper%20Radiator%20-%20passenger%20side_zpsbuoiwjjy.jpg.html)

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww131/islandmanhere/Old%20Mini%20Cooper%20Radiator%20-%20mounted_zpssv1whbj3.jpg (http://s713.photobucket.com/user/islandmanhere/media/Old%20Mini%20Cooper%20Radiator%20-%20mounted_zpssv1whbj3.jpg.html)

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww131/islandmanhere/Rad%203_zpsld0ij0ym.jpg (http://s713.photobucket.com/user/islandmanhere/media/Rad%203_zpsld0ij0ym.jpg.html)

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww131/islandmanhere/Rad%204_zpsmqscusms.jpg (http://s713.photobucket.com/user/islandmanhere/media/Rad%204_zpsmqscusms.jpg.html)

CyCo
10-07-2015, 02:59 PM
Bingo! I found it, they were on Radeks blog.

Read the Radiator section of his blog, a detailed step by step guide :banana:

http://radekseureka.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/cooling.html?view=magazine

Ah, there you go, and even more photos than I had. Totally forgot Radeks blog had this about the radiators.

:thumbup:

ydeardorff
10-07-2015, 04:33 PM
Another as yet untested option too is the porsche boxster or cayman triple rad setup. Its the radiator, and Ac condensor all in one super small setup.

bushboy
10-07-2015, 09:21 PM
I have the original MX6 V6 radiator mid mounted in the reek with the one off side scoops & with both fans running on full speed it will only just keep the engine cool in UK temps at 70mph. Push it past this and it is not long before you have to back off to let it cool down.

I have been looking at the same front mout option for some time now & was considering using Suzuki GSX400 rads as from the measurements I have take they will fit. I intend to fit 3. One each side at front & one on drivers side infront of the rear wheel, fed from the side scoop.

Now I have seen this conversion & armed with the knowledge that the Austin Mini cooper alloy rad fits with minor mods, it is the route I'll be heading down. However I intend to slope the rads the other way, ie low at front & high at the back.

Bushboy

Buffy
10-07-2015, 09:23 PM
Dave
I am sold .Looks like the best way to go all round.
Also got CKC today and that is a very good article. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Today I also solved the throttle cable linkage on how to attach the cable to a ball joint linkage without using a cable joiner. Bought some solderless nipples from CBS, cut a thread on the extension then screwed them into a ball joint which they also supply.
Good day all round

Buffy
10-07-2015, 09:25 PM
I have the original MX6 V6 radiator mid mounted in the reek with the one off side scoops & with both fans running on full speed it will only just keep the engine cool in UK temps at 70mph. Push it past this and it is not long before you have to back off to let it cool down.

I have been looking at the same front mout option for some time now & was considering using Suzuki GSX400 rads as from the measurements I have take they will fit. I intend to fit 3. One each side at front & one on drivers side infront of the rear wheel, fed from the side scoop.

Now I have seen this conversion & armed with the knowledge that the Austin Mini cooper alloy rad fits with minor mods, it is the route I'll be heading down. However I intend to slope the rads the other way, ie low at front & high at the back.

Bushboy
I think is is definitely the way to go .

islandman
11-07-2015, 01:03 AM
However I intend to slope the rads the other way, ie low at front & high at the back.

Bushboy

I'm not sure you will have enough space to reverse them. The front under tray slopes down from the front to the back, if you tried to reverse the rad slope the angle would be almost horizontal given the space confines. I guess it will all become clear when you offer it up.

CyCo
11-07-2015, 03:27 AM
Something else to keep in mind;

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k180/DawieCoetzee/Howmuchradiator.jpg (http://s88.photobucket.com/user/DawieCoetzee/media/Howmuchradiator.jpg.html)

Peter
11-07-2015, 11:16 AM
Or horizontal above the wheel arch with louvers in the top of the wing/body in front of the screen is about the only option not thought of, but it's a daft one anyway.

I was thinking of the large oil cooler I have under the front of the rear deck and all that space above the gearbox and under where most of you have the fuel tank. a largish radiator with two fans, one constant and one thermo switched, would work well.
http://www.euro-nova.co.uk/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=1327&stc=1
Showing louvered exit for oil cooler
http://www.euro-nova.co.uk/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=1326&stc=1
Large fan assisted switched oil cooler

Peter
11-07-2015, 11:37 AM
Decisions, decisions, glad I have air/oil cooled.
http://www.euro-nova.co.uk/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=1325&stc=1
I rate; Effective/ease of install.
A, 80%/50%
B, 50%/30%
C, 20%/10%
D, 80%/60%
E, 80%/80%
F, 30%/70%

IMHO

Scorpion
11-07-2015, 01:27 PM
Or horizontal above the wheel arch with louvers in the top of the wing/body in front of the screen is about the only option not thought of, but it's a daft one anyway.

I was thinking of the large oil cooler I have under the front of the rear deck and all that space above the gearbox and under where most of you have the fuel tank. a largish radiator with two fans, one constant and one thermo switched, would work well.
http://www.euro-nova.co.uk/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=1327&stc=1
Showing louvered exit for oil cooler
http://www.euro-nova.co.uk/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=1326&stc=1
Large fan assisted switched oil cooler

this is the option i`m going for. nice large space where most nova`s have the fuel tank. a few more mod`s to inside of body for maximum air flow. the only problem doing it this way is that most of hot air from the rad will pass out over the top of the engine bay which is where, at the moment, my air intake for the carb sits. this may have an affect on the carb tuning. if it does i`ll just re route the air intake.

Scorpion
11-07-2015, 01:30 PM
Decisions, decisions, glad I have air/oil cooled.
http://www.euro-nova.co.uk/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=1325&stc=1
I rate; Effective/ease of install.
A, 80%/50%
B, 50%/30%
C, 20%/10%
D, 80%/60%
E, 80%/80%
F, 30%/70%

IMHO

nice pic`s peter as usual. :thumbup:

Buffy
11-07-2015, 05:28 PM
There is much good info on here, and I am obviously grateful, it does make sense I think for a desperate folder for the watercooled engines.

islandman
12-07-2015, 01:03 AM
There is much good info on here, and I am obviously grateful, it does make sense I think for a desperate folder for the watercooled engines.

When it comes to water cooled issues most of us are "desperate" for solutions so it makes sense :tongue1:

Seriously though we have sort of hijacked your build thread, Maybe Dan or Alax can move these bits of the thread to a new "Radiator" thread ?:please:

Alzax3
12-07-2015, 09:59 AM
As requested, new thread for discussion of water cooling ideas and issues. Enjoy!

bobbybrown
12-07-2015, 10:36 AM
Beat me to it! Thanks Alex.

Peter
12-07-2015, 10:35 PM
Radical man

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Dirk
12-07-2015, 11:39 PM
Decisions, decisions, glad I have air/oil cooled.
http://www.euro-nova.co.uk/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=1325&stc=1
I rate; Effective/ease of install.
A, 80%/50%
B, 50%/30%
C, 20%/10%
D, 80%/60%
E, 80%/80%
F, 30%/70%

IMHO
Peter,
You missed two either side of the engine drawing in air through the rear wheel arches, this is how I had my first setup with to Metro rads it worked in as much as the engine never overheated but it looked untidy with all the interconnecting pipes and made the engine bay very crowded, Moving to a single Metro rad up front was the best way forward for me simple and effective running the pipes under the tunnel.

Dirk

Peter
13-07-2015, 06:40 AM
Probably why I didn't include it, also I am not 100% with Nova bodywork, on the SS we have inner wings behind the rear wheels and a wall beside the wheel so room there too also at an angle from just below the torsion bar sloping up over the axles but I considered that a version of the 'over gearbox' option.


http://www.euro-nova.co.uk/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=1328&stc=1


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CyCo
13-07-2015, 01:27 PM
Also didn't include under the headlights. :wink:

Mostin
13-07-2015, 03:12 PM
Hello all.

I'm just having a catch up as I've been away on my hols.

When i was at this same point about how or where too mount my rad or rads one of the people I spoke to was a very nice chap at stone's. He was on a stand that build single seat racing cars running GSXR & Blade engines. He was very helpful. To the point he even took the body off one of his cars to chat about how they cool their cars & some pointers to keep in mind.

This is what he told me so i hope it helps:-

1) I was surprised how small their rads are & how small the air intake was. It was just a bit bigger than a "letter box"!! They also didn't run fans because of the extra weight! (I'm not saying do that on a Nova). Yes the cars are whizzing along with air being forced in at speed but as the they said their cars are running flat out 99% of the time at stupid revs which make a lot of heat.

2) The rad was best mount in the front to get the best ram air effect with nothing in the way to reduce or restrict the airflow going in. Their rad is mounted at an angle of around 45' due to space but the idea is to get the rad as upright as possible given the space restrictions & its size. You want as much surface area exposed to the direct air flow.

3) This is a big one. Make sure the air goes throw the rad not around it. You need to seal off any gaps around the rad.

4) Venting out the hot expanded air is just as important. You want the air pressure at the front of the rad forcing it throw with nothing reducing the flow flow behind the rad.

As always there's more than one way to do things plus we live in a world of compromise but keeping the above in mind may help when trying to gauge the size & location of rad or rads you use.

I've got to say I like the idea of the twin front rads under the lights.

Cheers.
Mostin

Spacenut
13-07-2015, 07:07 PM
Interestingly, Option A (rads either side of the engine, mounted longitudinally) was the configuration adopted for the original LP500 Countach prototype in 1971. Bob Wallace noted that it would work fine in a racing environment, but on the road the engine overheated and destroyed itself very quickly. This is why the 4-litre engine was substituted (together with the extra airboxes and NACA ducts) on all production cars.

Mostin is right - if the airflow is right you do not need a large radiator, or even a fan most of the time. In 2009 I drove from North Hampshire to North Yorkshire for an Alfa show and the radiator fans didn't come on until I stopped the engine 4 hours and 30 minutes later. I have a standard Alfasud radiator in the nose, at a 45 degree angle, with reversed nostrils for hot air extraction.

Lauren

Mostin
13-07-2015, 07:43 PM
I have a standard Alfasud radiator in the nose, at a 45 degree angle, with reversed nostrils for hot air extraction.

Lauren

I've got the same set up but with a VW scirocco radiator. Boxed in, in the nose.

Yes I'm a "reversed nostrils" copy cat :whistling:

Cheers.
Mostin

Spacenut
13-07-2015, 08:44 PM
Hey, it's no problem - I just reasoned that the nostrils would serve the same purpose as any number of other mid-engined cars (Miura, GT40, 512BB etc.) if they were reversed.

I've just realised Peter's Option B was actually used in the Lamborghini Diablo, albeit paired with large dorsal intakes on the tops of the rear wings. Also, the rear bumper was profiled to direct airflow past the radiator grilles to aid hot air extraction. I can't say I am a fan of this idea as it concentrates far too much mass at the rear of the car - at least the Diablo had the engine (and transmission) well ahead of the rear axle.

Lauren

PS - for complete completeness, there is one more radiator location that has been used before - twin radiators in the side sills just behind the front wheels, exhausting into large scallops either side of the car. Macca F1, in case you hadn't guessed :D

Peter
14-07-2015, 07:52 AM
Hmmmm, just you wait till I get home,:tongue1: After sorting out overheating problems on a PGO 250 buggy.:facepalm:

bushboy
16-07-2015, 08:27 PM
Hmmmm, just you wait till I get home,:tongue1: After sorting out overheating problems on a PGO 250 buggy.:facepalm:

Peter,
Option E doesn't work. Even with large ducts, all air leaks sealed the V6 (-0.2 on the calculator) still gets hot with two large high flow fans sucking power from the alternator.

THat is why I will be going front rad(s) as soon as I have the time.

Happy cooling all

Bushboy

Peter
16-07-2015, 08:54 PM
I only threw together some options, it doesn't reflect my personal preference, OK, of you insist, in the nose, reversed nostrils with Noreca bonnet, ( and quad lights)

in fact, a Noreca GT on my design of all alloy chassis, full Scooby 2.2 twin turbo 4x4 .

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Peter
16-07-2015, 08:57 PM
On mine there is enough room to fit a rad either side above the wheels angled down at the front fed by the scoops and exit via my rear wing vents (Sierra)

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Buffy
09-10-2015, 04:29 PM
OK
Bringing this back as about to start on the cooling system. Definitely going for twin rads under the front lights however been thinking about how I am going to plumb them from the engine.
Pipes down the middle of the car, or around the outside in the sills?
At the moment favouring the sill route but interested in views and thoughts.

Mark

ydeardorff
09-10-2015, 04:34 PM
Look at the Porsche boxster, or 968 coolant tubes setup. Might help to see what's already been done.
145514561457

The center radiator is 150 x 609 x 38mm
The outer radiators are approximately 355 x 381 x 38mm
If purchased from a breaker, ithey will typically also include the AC condenser, fans, and ducting.
IF the side rads are too big, they might be able to be angled to fit, or custom rads ordered to replace them.
This system would leave the front (bonnet) or as we call it trunk open for other uses.

Peter
09-10-2015, 09:06 PM
I would be inclined to look at the 'in the tunnel' approach using the access panel on the frame head and exit above torsion tube at rear using flexible pipes rather than steel which would be a pig to thread in and would be prone to rattle. That thick walled polypropylene pipe as used on plumbing rather than hose, a lot tougher and can be 'moulded' with gentle heating.

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Peter
09-10-2015, 09:07 PM
At least on the Nova one can remove the sides to run pipes.

steve_d
09-10-2015, 10:00 PM
I've run Patrick's pipes down the middle between the dropped floors so they are out of the way.
If you run them down the sills you need to dogleg then in and back out again to go round the front suspension.

Steve

Buffy
09-10-2015, 10:44 PM
Thanks for the comments so far.
Like the idea of a cradle holding the rads.
Not sure about using alkethene
Going up the middle is a good route for a central rad , but is it a good route when running two rads?

Mark

Peter
09-10-2015, 10:47 PM
Coming up the centre is good as you split left, right at the front torsion tubes and forwards up the sides of the boot to the rads under the lights, across the nose for the link.

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