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Buffy
01-05-2017, 11:09 AM
As you know my car had an issue with brakes on mot for not being effective even though they were brand new.
Now when I have changed pads on all my other vehicles I have brakes straight away, so what us the issue here?
I have stripped and cleaned then again. On examination black stuff came off all discs front and rear ( back has an emoi conversion ).
I am thinking that the issue is with the pads which are supplied with the kits.
Has anyone else had the same problem ( I know most in has )?
Does anyone use any pads which are a different make to the ones supplied with the kits?

Buffy

Phill
01-05-2017, 11:54 AM
I have been thinking that something can't be right as normally when you fit new pads the brakes work straight away and don't need bedding in to any great extent to make them work.

My only thoughts are perhaps yours are designed to work with servo assistance? I know that with my Capri, if the engine is switched off and the car is coasting, the brakes are practically useless but work fine when the engine is running and the servo is applying extra pressure.

Buffy
01-05-2017, 12:10 PM
I am certain the force applied is fine as the master cylinders are big enough for the job.
The kits are also for a beetle which is a heavier car therefore you should
Need less force to stop the car.
On the volkszone forum someone kept having to buff their pads as they getting shiny ( same kit fitted )
Think I can get ferodo or EBC pads for the front but not sure about the rear .

Gaisa
01-05-2017, 01:39 PM
I am certain the force applied is fine as the master cylinders are big enough for the job.
The kits are also for a beetle which is a heavier car therefore you should
Need less force to stop the car.
On the volkszone forum someone kept having to buff their pads as they getting shiny ( same kit fitted )
Think I can get ferodo or EBC pads for the front but not sure about the rear .

Odd... I can't see "shiny" being an issue as it maximizes surface area, but if the pads are contaminated, they could potentially act as self lubricating...
If more than one person is having issues with the pads and you haven't accidentally spilled something on them...
First thing I can suggest; try setting the pads on fire, it should force any potential lubricant from the pads.

Second; New pads all around. Not the happiest of solutions after spending out loads of money on getting your car up to spec, but sometimes, needs must. Check the identification number on your old pad boxes, you may find they're a match for pads used on other vehicles :)

Lastly; use fine abrasive on the discs to "rough up" the surface, that and a little brake cleaner should clean anything off them, and remove anything potentially contaminating them.

MartinB
01-05-2017, 04:44 PM
I have been thinking that something can't be right as normally when you fit new pads the brakes work straight away and don't need bedding in to any great extent to make them work.



I also thought something similar; if you have to drive around to 'bed in' brakes before they are up to mot standards then there should be an awful lot more accidents on the road? :scared:

Mostin
01-05-2017, 06:09 PM
Has anyone else had the same problem ( I know most in has )? Buffy

I've also had the same sort of problem. I replaced all of the brake. New standard vw front disc's, new calipers, new pads etc. Disc's were cleaned before putting on new calipers & pads. When I first tried them they were pants. So bad I even changed out the pads again just in case.

You do have to bed them in & they have slowly improved but I'm still not happy with them.

Are there any brands that are more abrasive than others. Which would perform better?

Cheers.
Mostin

Spacenut
01-05-2017, 07:03 PM
Hi guys - don't forget that new brake discs are coated with an anti-corrosion compound which needs to be cleaned off before you use them. In cases where new discs are fitted, this might explain the problem, but not if not... :confused1:

Gaisa
01-05-2017, 07:46 PM
Hi guys - don't forget that new brake discs are coated with an anti-corrosion compound which needs to be cleaned off before you use them. In cases where new discs are fitted, this might explain the problem, but not if not... :confused1:

I clean forgot about that! My old van had an oily film over the replacement discs and I had to thoroughly clean them before installation.. t
Though, from the way the other guys are commenting, and my recalling how the discs on my old bug before it moved to the scrapyard in the sky performed, maybe a little servo assist would help?

Spacenut
01-05-2017, 08:56 PM
Servo assistance only reduces the amount of braking effort, the brake efficiency is unaffected. So the brakes should easily go through an MoT, you would just need to stand on them a bit harder. I have dual master cylinders and no servo assistance, and yes, the pedal needs a good shove but you can easily get the wheels to lock up, even in the dry. I would still guess some sort of surface contamination, but I would expect brake cleaner to be able to get it off...

It was just a thought.

I have been warned off EBC pads (I did use some Green Stuff ones on the front for a while) in favour of Ferodo, but to be honest, for road use there probably isn't much difference between different makes. Just make sure the compound isn't for competition use otherwise they will never get up to working temperature!

Lauren

Mostin
02-05-2017, 07:13 AM
After looking around the net last night. Because I've got discs all round I think my next move will be to upgrade my master cylinder form the standard VW one.

It should give me better fluid delivery. After all a bigger master cylinder can't hurt.

Cheers.
Mostin.

Buffy
02-05-2017, 11:04 AM
After looking around the net last night. Because I've got discs all round I think my next move will be to upgrade my master cylinder form the standard VW one.

It should give me better fluid delivery. After all a bigger master cylinder can't hurt.

Cheers.
Mostin.


I think you may find that bigger isn't always better !!!

I have ordered some ferodo front pads and will let you know how they go......

jim73vw
02-05-2017, 11:14 AM
I think you may find that bigger isn't always better !!!

I have ordered some ferodo front pads and will let you know how they go......

Agree!

I ran a stock VW disc conversion at the front on Nena and standard EMPI rear conversion on stock pads. The biggest change was going over to a different pedal set up to get front/rear bias adjustment.

On the buggy I still run drums as discs on a light bug front end can lock too easily and leave you bouncing locked fronts down the road.

Dirk
02-05-2017, 11:34 AM
Mark did you swap your masters back to the fronts being the smaller bore cylinder? this is worth a read.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122367

Dirk

Buffy
02-05-2017, 12:27 PM
Dirk
I double checked the cylinders when I changed the clutch one so happy with that. The balance bar is a interesting twist though and something to look at

Peter
02-05-2017, 02:43 PM
2159
Is the way I went with Locost set up, all three cylinders are Land Rover 3./4" Bas bar is a must really.

Buffy
02-05-2017, 02:54 PM
2159
Is the way I went with Locost set up, all three cylinders are Land Rover 3./4" Bas bar is a must really.

Peter

Although I do not want to, I was searching through the forum last night and noticed your wildwood set up.

Now is yours a bolt on kit for front and back, or did you have you make serious changes to the mounts ?

Dirk
02-05-2017, 10:57 PM
Dirk
I double checked the cylinders when I changed the clutch one so happy with that. The balance bar is a interesting twist though and something to look at

I thought you had put the smaller bore cylinder on the clutch and the larger bores on both the front and back ie both your front and rear cylinders are the same size bore? The front should be the smaller bore as it puts more pressure on the front bakes and so your bias bar dost need to be off centre by very much, preventing any possible fouling.

Dirk

Buffy
02-05-2017, 11:05 PM
I have as follows:
7.5 on clutch
6.25 front brakes
7.0 on rear brakes

So I beefed up the clutch which works fines and the cylinders are as per what compubrake advise.

Will change front pads first as I have a split system. If that makes a difference I am on the right track, I hope !!

Buffy
07-05-2017, 10:38 AM
Just fitted Mintex front pads on the car and straight away I can feel a difference. £14-07 from eBay.
So now I just have to sort out another mot slot and see what happens this time !

islandman
07-05-2017, 12:19 PM
Just fitted Mintex front pads on the car and straight away I can feel a difference

Well that is a positive result :crossfinger:

Dirk
07-05-2017, 10:27 PM
Excellent fingers crossed.

Dirk

Buffy
12-05-2017, 05:55 PM
Well
I have found that mintex front brake pads made a big difference when they were tested again today so that is one to note for the future.

Back brakes. I have the empi kit, they were better after a clean however I still feel they could be better.

Now I am wondering if they are the same as these, for they do look the same. Does anyone know.?
http://www.mksportscars.com/ford-sierra-rear-caliper-pair.html

If anyone has tried then it means we can get different pads to the empi ones .

Buffy

Spacenut
12-05-2017, 08:44 PM
I can't imagine EMPI would manufacture their own calipers, but coming originally from the US (and now from China) the stock parts they use may differ from those available to us in Europe. I think the usual comparator with brakes is to measure the PCD (the effective diameter of an imaginary circle that bisects both mounting lugs), as this is probably the easiest way to compare calipers from different manufacturers.

If it is just brake pads you need, many suppliers' websites have dimensioned drawings of their pads available, just match your EMPI pads to a particular manufacturer and buy a decent Mintex set for your car. Your current pads may be made from compressed milk bottle tops!

Lauren

jim73vw
12-05-2017, 08:56 PM
Well
I have found that mintex front brake pads made a big difference when they were tested again today so that is one to note for the future.

Back brakes. I have the empi kit, they were better after a clean however I still feel they could be better.

Now I am wondering if they are the same as these, for they do look the same. Does anyone know.?
http://www.mksportscars.com/ford-sierra-rear-caliper-pair.html

If anyone has tried then it means we can get different pads to the empi ones .

Buffy

As Lauren says I think it is unlikely that Empi would manufacture their own callipers for such a limited market. I seem to recall Big boys toys when they existed telling me they were derived from golf parts, but I might be wrong. As Lauren suggests take a pad to a decent motor factor - there will be others out there that match.

islandman
13-05-2017, 01:23 AM
I remember trying to find pads for my lancia Delta rears, I took a pad to a motor factors who had a hugs book with the full size diagrams in it. We simply went through it overlaying my pad on the diagrams until we found one that was 95% perfect. All I needed to do was cut the corner tabs off the new pads for a 100% perfect fit.