Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 31

Thread: Roll frame / escape routes

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Near Eastbourne
    Posts
    795

    Roll frame / escape routes

    Following a private discussion with Alistair, we figured it would be best to post in a new thread, for simplicity's sake...

    Several posts, have brought up something I've been thinking about for a while, and after talking to Alistair privately about it, we wanted to see your opinion on a proper thread regarding these matters:

    Many of you have had, at one time or another, issues with the canopy opening, and have explained how they had to use their sun roof as an escape route, which is fine if you have one! But what about those who don't, what would be a viable work around for these?
    Would, like was posted in a different thread, the possibility of releasing the ram bolts, and pushing the roof up, maybe in some kind of hinge action actually work?

    Alistair suggested using the side windows, and continued with his comment about getting out through side windows, if by some unlucky chain of events, the car ended up on its roof!

    Now, this opened up some questions for me, one of which, was the chance of the canopy surviving such an incident, especially after seeing how Mick's canopy looked like it was destroyed by that recovery muppet when he strapped Mick'sRedNova down on the truck!

    That, would potentially render the side windows useless, and the main window would be just as useless, since it would be pretty much flat against the ground!

    He then commented about how the rams/whatever would be strong enough to lift the car while on the roof? I'm not sure about that and would ask you guys if that's feasible, or not?
    He then mentioned something about sunroofs, but I'll leave that for him, when he gets to make his post...

    There was one final thing, his comment about said car thinking its in australia (bad joke, I know!) made me consider, and that was the rear bulkhead, would that withstand the weight of the car and act as a roll frame? does it already have one in it? if not, I would personally consider building and installing a hidden roll frame in the rear bulkhead to add some structural strength and potentially eliminate the chance of its collapsing...
    All of the above pretty much rattled to the surface of my head with that one post, so, I ask your opinions about the concerns, and how you would address them?

    This isn't a way to talk myself out of owning a nova, its more to do with my thinking about ways to personalize and possibly improve on the safety of the car
    (Like, how to reinforce the structure of the canopy to eliminate the collapse issue, and more)
    Last edited by Gaisa; 17-06-2018 at 12:40 AM.

  2. #2
    Back in the eighties, the Elams sales people used to say that the rear tub moulding would act as a roll bar - and early cars had a lot of reinforcement in that area: the rear of the tub could be almost half an inch or more thick. A lot of the actual strength would depend how much the car had been hacked about and what destructive forces were inflicted on the lamination during the inversion.

    They also made the (almost certainly untested) claim that the hydraulics would lift the whole car. The pump/rams probably could - but the hinges are not very strong and will twist quite easilly - particularly if the lift wasn't dead straight - car quite likely on a slope (from memory - Mick's hinges appeared to have folded up under ratchet-strap pressure)

    I'm planning a roll bar in the the MG Nova partly to replace strength lost by the rear clamshell, and there's well-placed structure to support it. The Beetle chassis doesn't offer much useful Metal where you'd want it, (the (floppy anyway) pan ends at the rear of the tub, and the two horns are very central - the rear screen tunnel and fuel tank occupy the direct route to them) it would be easy to create one that was merely decorative.

    None of which is meant to be discouraging!
    Last edited by Alzax3; 17-06-2018 at 06:55 AM.
    It's a 52 year old car and everything works, just not always at the same time.......and it's probably about to get jealous!
    *Donate to Euro-Nova today!*

  3. #3
    Senior Member Phill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Livingston (Scotland)
    Posts
    2,202
    Good subject for debate.

    I still maintain the best and most obvious solution is a sunroof. Not only does this avoid damaging the car in the event of a roof failure, it also provides well needed ventilation as Novas can get very hot inside when it's sunny outside.

    As for the Elam claim that the pump would lift the car - theoretically it would, but in practice the hydraulic fluid would no longer be sitting in the bottom of the fluid reservoir so the pump would be pumping air so would not work.

    There are many resons for roof failure not just electrical. The pump could seize, the fuse could blow, there could be a hydraulic leak, or even (as happened to me back in the 80's when I built my first car) a side on collison could result in incapacitating the roof hydraulics. I can confirm that back then I did not have a sunroof fitted but did manage to get out of the car by pushing out a side window. Mind you, I was a bit slimmer then
    "The most beautiful kit car in the world - Motor"

    http://stores.lulu.com/rightsigns


  4. #4
    Don't under estimate the strength of fibreglass or our cars

    Sunroofs also come in handy as a place to lodge a tyre


  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Near Eastbourne
    Posts
    795
    Quote Originally Posted by islandman View Post
    Don't under estimate the strength of fibreglass or our cars

    Sunroofs also come in handy as a place to lodge a tyre
    .... OW!
    And thank you for sharing a picture that helps resolve potential concerns I and possibly others may have had!

    I have to ask, was that your Nova? or did you know of the incident from elsewhere?
    Last edited by Gaisa; 17-06-2018 at 12:12 PM.

  6. #6
    ***Euro-Nova Supporter*** BlueNova's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    St Andrews, Scotland
    Posts
    3,110
    Quote Originally Posted by islandman View Post
    Don't under estimate the strength of fibreglass or our cars

    Sunroofs also come in handy as a place to lodge a tyre

    That's a crazy photo David. I remember seeing it in one of the threads in the Sterling Forum. I'm pretty sure they said it was a Eureka. Would be interested to find out more details of how it happened. The scrapes on the drivers wing suggest the Eureka either scooped up the family car or it somehow travelled sideways back towards the Eureka.

    Anyway, it has helped me it 2 ways ...

    I'm reassured about the strength of the Nova body in the event of being upside down. Of course it all depends how you end up that way and a high speed impact might have a different outcome. My body will remain separated from the chassis for a while yet, so there's still plenty time to contemplate some sort of roll bar (accepting Alex's point about fixing it to the VW chassis).

    I'm now convinced that for me at least, I'm going to make sure I have 2 means of escape. I've got the sunroof, so I just needs to make sure the side windows are easily removable from the inside.

    Cheers, Alistair

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaisa View Post
    .... OW!
    And thank you for sharing a picture that helps resolve potential concerns I and possibly others may have had!

    I have to ask, was that your Nova? or did you know of the incident from elsewhere?

    No not mine, and as Alistair said I believe its a Eureka

  8. #8
    ***Euro-Nova Supporter***
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Bicester Oxon
    Posts
    644
    When my Nova was originally on the road, I had a lever in the side by the drivers seat that released the 'holding' pressure by piping around the valve. On more than one occasion when the fuse went for the pump, (The fuse box was mounted on the top front drivers side of the dash, which you couldn't get to with the roof down - no idea why the original builder put it there!), I could then release the hydraulics, and if you then lean forward out of the seat and get your shoulders under the front of the roof, it is possible to lift the canopy. Re-engaging the lever to allow the hydraulics to again be held, the roof would lower until the pressure was enough to hold again when you sat back down but leave enough gap to allow you to crawl out of the side. I intend to implement the same system on the rebuild but will have to see how it was originally piped up to the lever.
    I do also have a sunroof, but the lever was very handy! `¬)
    Just to add; the fluid wasn't 'dumped', and once the lever was re-engaged the roof would work as usual once the fuse was sorted!

    Of course in the event of an accident, and you were upside down...
    I doubt if you could roll over the Nova in anything but an accident! (And I believe Nova cars had to show that the pump would lift the car from the roof when it was upside down - I suspect the front of the car being pretty light is the part that would lift first?)

    I also recall a tale (can't remember where from) about someone having a head on collision with a range rover; the range rover ended up doing a barrel roll over the Nova going up the bonnet and over the top; the only damage being a cracked windscreen and cracked bonnet - not so sure how the range rover faired...
    Last edited by MartinB; 17-06-2018 at 04:39 PM.

  9. #9
    ***Euro-Nova Supporter***
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,138
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaisa View Post

    [...]

    Many of you have had, at one time or another, issues with the canopy opening, and have explained how they had to use their sun roof as an escape route, which is fine if you have one! But what about those who don't, what would be a viable work around for these?
    Would, like was posted in a different thread, the possibility of releasing the ram bolts, and pushing the roof up, maybe in some kind of hinge action actually work?
    With Actuators probably (unplug them from the loom) and unscrew the bottom mount.
    With Hydraulic rams ~No; you'd have to disconnect both(?) Hydraulic lines, which would be messy - although Martin may have the solution for this...
    The roof is heavy and would take some lifting as was suggested previously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaisa View Post
    Alistair suggested using the side windows, and continued with his comment about getting out through side windows, if by some unlucky chain of events, the car ended up on its roof!

    Now, this opened up some questions for me, one of which, was the chance of the canopy surviving such an incident, especially after seeing how Mick's canopy looked like it was destroyed by that recovery muppet when he strapped Mick'sRedNova down on the truck!

    That, would potentially render the side windows useless, and the main window would be just as useless, since it would be pretty much flat against the ground!
    I don't believe the side windows are a viable exit point if the car turns over, you'd be stuck in the vehicle until someone cuts you out.
    You can get stuck in a production car after an accident as well of course

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaisa View Post
    He then commented about how the rams/whatever would be strong enough to lift the car while on the roof? I'm not sure about that and would ask you guys if that's feasible, or not?
    The rams are powerful, but I don't believe the hinges are strong enough to lift the car.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaisa View Post
    He then mentioned something about sunroofs, but I'll leave that for him, when he gets to make his post...

    There was one final thing, his comment about said car thinking its in australia (bad joke, I know!) made me consider, and that was the rear bulkhead, would that withstand the weight of the car and act as a roll frame? does it already have one in it? if not, I would personally consider building and installing a hidden roll frame in the rear bulkhead to add some structural strength and potentially eliminate the chance of its collapsing...
    All of the above pretty much rattled to the surface of my head with that one post, so, I ask your opinions about the concerns, and how you would address them?
    A hidden roll frame (just behind the rear bulkhead) is an interesting idea, but difficult to achieve because of the cutting of the body's internal panelwork to install the bar (unless you build it in 2 halves and bolt them together above the rear window tunnel). The bottom of the bars would mount on the rear torsion bar tube..? A Roll bar needs some support/triangulation, that will be difficult to achieve with a hidden bar.

    An internal roll-bar (inside the cockpit) is something I am considering, the mount points would be ALL the normal floorpan bolts from the side-pockets backwards, with an additional mount point on the main tube.
    This would stiffen the chassis, provide crash protection and provide a stronger mount point for the seat belts.
    This picture is a guide only - what I have in mind looks nothing like this.
    Ignore 6x6 mount points, this cage is from a Chevy:

    InternalCage.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by Gaisa View Post
    This isn't a way to talk myself out of owning a nova, its more to do with my thinking about ways to personalize and possibly improve on the safety of the car
    (Like, how to reinforce the structure of the canopy to eliminate the collapse issue, and more)
    Good to hear ;-)

  10. #10
    ***Euro-Nova Supporter*** BlueNova's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    St Andrews, Scotland
    Posts
    3,110
    Steve,

    I like your thoughts on the roll frame and given that your restoration's going faster than mine, I look forward to hearing how you get on.

    Cheers, Alistair

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •