13B-REW vs EJ25 Turbo: Which is the better swap ?

[letterman7]

I've been holding back opinions... but now I have to let my inner arsehole fly. It seems that our original poster, Ryosuke, has absolutely no idea what the car is or how it's made other than it looks like it will go fast. Ryosuke, you need to do some serious research on your own on what makes a Volkswagen Beetle what it is and performance upgrades from there. You can do whatever you want to make the car go faster, so long as your wallet and sphincter muscles can handle it. The more motor in the back, the better your suspension (and driving talent) have to be - and on a Beetle chassis there is only so far you can go to improve it all. Bespoke A-arm front suspensions are available from a few companies, as well as bespoke coil-over rear setups. Going watercooled requires additional plumbing and a radiator - and you need to know how and where to mount all that in a very limited space. Other than a rotary, most (not all) water cooled engines are going to be heavier and require more space in the engine bay - which sets them back further from the center of gravity - which makes the handling even worse.

If you are truly interested in the car and are either a) looking to purchase one or b) already have one and are rebuilding, take some time to do educated research rather than just throwing ideas on a board to see what sticks. IMHO, a stout 1800 cc air cooled VW engine with a turbo is going to be way faster than most anyone would need. And at half the cost of putting a water cooled engine in the bay.

[Ryosuke]

I strongly suspect you'd need to find places to install ballast to weigh the car down or you'll spend more time with your front wheels off the ground, than driving.

This was a known fault in the Reliant Scmitar and if memory serves, Reliant's solution was to fill every cavity in the front with sand bags to prevent the front of the car lifting off the ground.
Sadly, a number of people discovered this and tried to lighten the car by removing the aforementioned ballast, rendering the cars uncontrollable and I believe this resulted in several accidents.

Couldn't you install a Spoiler or under tray,diffuser ... e.t.c ? I mean there is a lot of ways they increased down force in sports that are way lighter with more power , (To be fair though ,they probably replace the sand bags with $ Bags)

[Ryosuke]

I've been holding back opinions... but now I have to let my inner arsehole fly. It seems that our original poster, Ryosuke, has absolutely no idea what the car is or how it's made other than it looks like it will go fast. Ryosuke, you need to do some serious research on your own on what makes a Volkswagen Beetle what it is and performance upgrades from there. You can do whatever you want to make the car go faster, so long as your wallet and sphincter muscles can handle it. The more motor in the back, the better your suspension (and driving talent) have to be - and on a Beetle chassis there is only so far you can go to improve it all. Bespoke A-arm front suspensions are available from a few companies, as well as bespoke coil-over rear setups. Going watercooled requires additional plumbing and a radiator - and you need to know how and where to mount all that in a very limited space. Other than a rotary, most (not all) water cooled engines are going to be heavier and require more space in the engine bay - which sets them back further from the center of gravity - which makes the handling even worse.

If you are truly interested in the car and are either a) looking to purchase one or b) already have one and are rebuilding, take some time to do educated research rather than just throwing ideas on a board to see what sticks. IMHO, a stout 1800 cc air cooled VW engine with a turbo is going to be way faster than most anyone would need. And at half the cost of putting a water cooled engine in the bay.

The only reason I throw "ideas" instead of doing research on already published information is because most specific information on the build of the Body and general information on the Nova is really hard to come upon. I do know that the Nova uses the Beetle Chassis , a chassis which plenty of information exists , but i wanted to know the car's unique quirks since I don't think every production Beetle came with a fiber glass body and I also don't think every Nova required no modifications needed to the chassis so it would fit, which would result less/more space to work with new parts which would differ with a Stock Beetle.

Now i do know that a lot of my questions are stupid and require basic knowledge answers but a lot of posts in the forum encourage beginners to not shy away and make dumb questions because "we were all once there" . I know it's really annoying to be familiar with a certain community and i apologize for people having to deal with my beginner's bullsh*t , but I am new to the Nova community and in the Kit community in general . Despite knowing that in a few years I will look back to this event and question how I could be so stupid , I prefer getting embarrassed and learning new information rather than spending 2 hours just to find a half related Answer .

[Gaisa]

Hmm, I hadn't heard that one before - or was it the Scimitar SS1 (the small roadster, not the GTE "sports estate")?

Sorry, I can't remember.
Part of what I remember was told to me by an ex boss of mine who was a bit of a nut, the rest was some magazine over twenty years ago.
I THINK it may be the estate with its being light, seriously over powered and rear wheel drive.

(EDIT)
I just spoke to my dad, (he's 75 on friday and STILL works on cars as a hobby) and he confirmed it was the GTE estate, also, he told me it was on TV the other day, and I'm led to believe it also mentioned the sandbag ballast in the car's nose.

[Gaisa]

The only reason I throw "ideas" instead of doing research ...... [snip}

Fair enough, though much f what you've askd exists in previous posts, a little searching may bring the answers you seek to light.
Over powered engines, for example; you'll see most of those here who started with a turbo engine took the turbo off and installed a carburettor.
Part of this is to simplify things, the other, is to reduce the output power of an engine in a way that improves the drivers chance of surviving a a round trip to the supermarket.

Couldn't you install a Spoiler or under tray,diffuser ... e.t.c ? I mean there is a lot of ways they increased down force in sports that are way lighter with more power , (To be fair though ,they probably replace the sand bags with $ Bags)

They all have their uses, much of which is while at speed. However, that down force is negligable during the initial acceleration, which is the biggest issue here.
If you goose the pedal too hard, you could either spin your wheels out almost instantly.
Or if they do get traction, you aren't going to be doing much if you're too busy hanging on for dear life while your cars front is looking at the sky.
Those are the greater extremes, but I hope you understand what we're trying to explain...

[Ryosuke]

Fair enough, though much f what you've askd exists in previous posts, a little searching may bring the answers you seek to light.
Over powered engines, for example; you'll see most of those here who started with a turbo engine took the turbo off and installed a carburettor.
Part of this is to simplify things, the other, is to reduce the output power of an engine in a way that improves the drivers chance of surviving a a round trip to the supermarket.



They all have their uses, much of which is while at speed. However, that down force is negligable during the initial acceleration, which is the biggest issue here.
If you goose the pedal too hard, you could either spin your wheels out almost instantly.
Or if they do get traction, you aren't going to be doing much if you're too busy hanging on for dear life while your cars front is looking at the sky.
Those are the greater extremes, but I hope you understand what we're trying to explain...

Thanks a lot for your help !

[Gaisa]

Thanks a lot for your help !

Welcome, you should also pay attention to what Letterman said (I think his name's David?).
Of all the Nova kits around, the ones which stand a better chance of out performing others would be custom chassis based kits, like Lauren's or the Pie Valley chassis.
I believe the standard ORIGINAL VW chassis used in the Nova follows an 80+ year old design and while its good for what it is, its not really made for performance.

[Dirk]

Having done two 2lt non turbo Subaru conversions now, the first one on a very standard Beetle chassis, gearbox and suspension all bit it it was IRS, and the second one (current car) which has upgraded coil over suspension front and rear (red 9) Subaru 5 speed gearbox and rear discs. The first one was fun to drive on a straight road 30 to 70 mph lots of power but it was power you could only use on a straight flat road, hit a bump or turn a slight corner at speed it did its own thing and not controllable at all, go over 70 mph ish the engine was reving its nuts off not a pleasant drive and stopping the car quickly from speed was a problem. The second one what a difference the suspension makes its a different car the handling is far superior bumps in the road are no longer an issue and corners are taken at a grater speed with confidence and stopping is better but could be improved.
All that said I still could not drive the car to the engines full capabilities there is still more power than my current set up can handle. Just to get to the set up I have is £10k ++ with you doing all the work. It you want to use the full power of these engines and more so a Turbo you need a new chassis with further improved suspension and brakes.

Dirk

[Gaisa]

Having done two 2lt non turbo Subaru conversions now, the first one on a very standard Beetle chassis, gearbox and suspension all bit it it was IRS, and the second one (current car) which has upgraded coil over suspension front and rear (red 9) Subaru 5 speed gearbox and rear discs. The first one was fun to drive on a straight road 30 to 70 mph lots of power but it was power you could only use on a straight flat road, hit a bump or turn a slight corner at speed it did its own thing and not controllable at all, go over 70 mph ish the engine was reving its nuts off not a pleasant drive and stopping the car quickly from speed was a problem. The second one what a difference the suspension makes its a different car the handling is far superior bumps in the road are no longer an issue and corners are taken at a grater speed with confidence and stopping is better but could be improved.
All that said I still could not drive the car to the engines full capabilities there is still more power than my current set up can handle. Just to get to the set up I have is £10k ++ with you doing all the work. It you want to use the full power of these engines and more so a Turbo you need a new chassis with further improved suspension and brakes.

Dirk

I'm glad my lowly opinion was fairly accurate

[letterman7]

The only reason I throw "ideas" instead of doing research on already published information is because most specific information on the build of the Body and general information on the Nova is really hard to come upon. I do know that the Nova uses the Beetle Chassis , a chassis which plenty of information exists , but i wanted to know the car's unique quirks since I don't think every production Beetle came with a fiber glass body and I also don't think every Nova required no modifications needed to the chassis so it would fit, which would result less/more space to work with new parts which would differ with a Stock Beetle.

Now i do know that a lot of my questions are stupid and require basic knowledge answers but a lot of posts in the forum encourage beginners to not shy away and make dumb questions because "we were all once there" . I know it's really annoying to be familiar with a certain community and i apologize for people having to deal with my beginner's bullsh*t , but I am new to the Nova community and in the Kit community in general . Despite knowing that in a few years I will look back to this event and question how I could be so stupid , I prefer getting embarrassed and learning new information rather than spending 2 hours just to find a half related Answer .

And I do appreciate that, being a beginner in the kit community. Information on how the body build and information is quite available, even right down to the build manual(s). To search for whatever specific answer you're looking for is as easy as asking the right question. Every Nova fit directly onto a Beetle chassis without modifications; there is enough room for *most* suspension modifications (having not fitted a Red9 or Mendeola A-arm components, I don't know for sure that those would clear the body, but folks have installed Red9 on here with no issues).
Asking very generic questions about which engine is better over another is a tough thing to stomach on any car forum as most of the forum members would expect the poster to do due-diligence research beforehand. Asking specific questions on an engine swap is expected and encouraged. A Nova is 1/3 lighter than a Beetle, so overall it takes less power to move just as fast. Heavier engines make for bad polar movements in corners regardless of suspension setup. I would heartily endorse you to find someone that has a car near you (or within a reasonable travel distance) to inspect yourself. You may find that these cars don't suit in terms of seating / confinement. People have bought a car and the first time the canopy comes down and claustrophobia sets in the car is put up for sale next day!