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Thread: Roof relay confirmation

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by novanewbie17 View Post
    Hi

    I've checked the wiring following the simplest diagram and all ok.
    I suspected the solenoid may be inoperative so I bypassed it and immediately
    got the unmistakeable sound of the pump- but no lifting of the roof.

    I guess it needs the solenoid for that to happen- I've ordered a new one.
    There are two little bullet shaped valves behind springs, these can stick if the pump has not been used for a while.

    I've placed the manual here, it may be some help

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/f14o5im7o...wzttk-PEa?dl=0
    Last edited by islandman; 23-05-2020 at 11:15 AM.

  2. #12
    Senior Member MicksRedNova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by novanewbie17 View Post
    Hi

    I've checked the wiring following the simplest diagram and all ok.
    I suspected the solenoid may be inoperative so I bypassed it and immediately
    got the unmistakeable sound of the pump- but no lifting of the roof.

    I guess it needs the solenoid for that to happen- I've ordered a new one.
    You don’t need a contactor (starter solenoid) to make the pump work properly, the contactor is only a high current relay. You need two circuits to be working for a Smiths pump to raise or lower the roof. The first circuit is the one that provides power to the pump motor, via the starter solenoid, to the black/red wires on the top of the motor. This causes the pump motor to run (loudly). You can power the pump motor directly from a 12 volt source (car battery) using jump leads if your careful to ensure red and black don’t touch.

    The second circuit is to apply 12 volts across the pair of (green) wires either side of the pump body that activate the internal pump solenoid valve; one pair cause pressure through the ‘up’ hoses and the other pair of green wires cause pressure through the ‘down’ hoses.

    The switches and relays in the electrical circuitry apply power to the motor and one of the solenoid circuits simultaneously.

    Don’t forget that you’re contactor (starter solenoid) needs an earth connection to the body of the unit as well as a 12 volt feed to the Lucar terminal. They are normally bolted to the chassis but in a plastic car you need to connect an earth wire to the fixing bolt. When you press your roof button can you hear this device click?

    Hope this helps. Sounds like you’re almost there.

    Mick
    Club Nova Member (F-036)

    MicksRedNova2 may take as long as the original!!

  3. #13
    ***Euro-Nova Supporter*** Spacenut's Avatar
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    If the solenoid is working you should have heard a loud click when it was energised.

    So the pump motor works, which is good news. The noisy rattle indicates that the camshaft is also connected and doing its thing. It's a reciprocating pump, the motor spins a camshaft that operates a piston with a non-return valve. The two solenoid valves determine which port the pressurised fluid comes out of. The default for both valves is closed, when not energised. If neither valve is energised then the pump should just run against the relief valve. Or as Dave says the solenoid valves may be stuck, preventing fluid pressure from building up.

    Try energising each valve in isolation. You should hear each one click when it is energised. As noted above, they are not polarity sensitive.

    Nearly there!

    Lauren
    only Pythagoras can save me now!

  4. #14
    So I'm nearly there, but not in the correct way!

    On each side of the pump there are 2 green wires- one of each goes
    to earth. I joined them into one and took that one wire to earth.

    Just now I tried taking that wire off, connected the battery and the roof went up-
    very quickly and smoothly (it's lucky our cat wasn't sitting on the roof as usual!)

    It stopped at the peak, the switches internal and external didn't cut the power, so i
    took the battery clamp off.

    I then put the earth wire back on and the roof came down. It was very smooth and controlled,
    but what's going on?! Bear in mind I have for now bypassed the solenoid until the new one arrives.

    Thanks

  5. #15
    Senior Member MicksRedNova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by novanewbie17 View Post
    So I'm nearly there, but not in the correct way!

    On each side of the pump there are 2 green wires- one of each goes
    to earth. I joined them into one and took that one wire to earth.

    Just now I tried taking that wire off, connected the battery and the roof went up-
    very quickly and smoothly (it's lucky our cat wasn't sitting on the roof as usual!)

    It stopped at the peak, the switches internal and external didn't cut the power, so i
    took the battery clamp off.

    I then put the earth wire back on and the roof came down. It was very smooth and controlled,
    but what's going on?! Bear in mind I have for now bypassed the solenoid until the new one arrives.

    Thanks
    With 1 of each pair of green wires joined and going to earth your circuitry should apply +12 to one or the other green wire, one for up and one for down. These wires are normally fed from the ‘toggle’ relay, the modified one you queried earlier, which switches +12v to alternate wires each time you press the button. It sounds to me like your ‘toggle’ relay is either not modified correctly of wired up wrong.

    It sounds like your pump is working OK and it’s the control circuit that’s the problem.

    Mick
    Club Nova Member (F-036)

    MicksRedNova2 may take as long as the original!!

  6. #16
    thumbnail-1.jpg

    Thanks Mick, understood.

    The other 2 wires from the side of the pump go to 56a and 56b on the relay, that's fine.

    I have bypassed the solenoid until the new one arrives but that has wire no72 going to it also.
    (So I have joined the 2 solenoid live wires together with that wire, maybe thats confusing things)

  7. #17
    ***Euro-Nova Supporter*** Spacenut's Avatar
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    It sounds to me like you might be activating the relay changeover function manually - the sequence of simultaneously connecting the power to the pump motor and the relay switched its polarity and up it went. Disconnecting and reconnecting the power latched the relay into the down position and down she went.

    Note that the circuit you are using has no limit switches to stop the cylinders over-extending, you have to stop the travel yourself. This could be by keeping a momentary switch depressed for the duration of the cycle or use a latching switch and remembering to switch it off when the canopy is open far enough. The latter is what I do on the Green Machine.

    Limit switches are a nice feature, but can take a bit of experimentation to get right, and will also require a more complicated circuit with blocking diodes to prevent relay failure. There are some examples of this circuit in the modifications manual, but I personally like to keep things simple - especially as I don't have an easy escape route if the canopy electrics should fail

    Lauren
    only Pythagoras can save me now!

  8. #18
    Senior Member MicksRedNova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by novanewbie17 View Post
    thumbnail-1.jpg

    Thanks Mick, understood.

    The other 2 wires from the side of the pump go to 56a and 56b on the relay, that's fine.

    I have bypassed the solenoid until the new one arrives but that has wire no72 going to it also.
    (So I have joined the 2 solenoid live wires together with that wire, maybe thats confusing things)
    The solenoid should have wire 72 going to the Lucar terminal and an earth wire going to the metal body of it. If you have made those 2 connections and the solenoid doesn’t click when you push your button then the solenoid needs replacing. If it does click you shouldn’t need to bypass the solenoid, it should work ok.

    As a test you could take a wire from 72 and connect it to either of the green wires (taken from 56a or 56b) but only one of them at a time, and with the pump motor running pressing the button should make your roof go either up or down, whilst the button is pressed.

    Mick
    Club Nova Member (F-036)

    MicksRedNova2 may take as long as the original!!

  9. #19
    It works!

    The roof comes up, the roof goes down.
    Just got to fit it all in the car. Thanks for all the help.

  10. #20
    Owners Register Admin & Euro-Nova Supporter BlueNova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by novanewbie17 View Post
    It works!

    The roof comes up, the roof goes down.
    Just got to fit it all in the car. Thanks for all the help.
    Well done!!!

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